This is the first installment of "From a Different Point of View," a feature where I discuss a comic book series with another writer. In this case, it is CBR's own Eileen Gonzalez who will be going over the history of the Avengers with me, story by story!

We begin, of course, with Avengers #1, "Coming of the Avengers" by Jack Kirby, Stan Lee and Dick Ayers!

Brian Cronin: This issue was famously thrown together at sort of the last minute due to Daredevil #1 being delayed. Did you get any sort of sense of that from how the issue was put together, or did Kirby and Lee pull it off without seeming out of the ordinary? Marvel's initial plan was to do one Spider-Man like book (Daredevil) and one Fantastic Four like book (X-Men), but when DD was late, they quickly just did a sort of Justice League riff with the Avengers.

Eileen Gonzalez: Well you'd never guess it was put together so quickly based on the sheer AMOUNT of story in this issue. There's so much going on here: you've got Rick Jones and company trying and failing to get help from different quarters, Loki using the Hulk to cause trouble, the Avengers teaming up to stop Loki, and even a side adventure with Thor and Loki fighting one-on-one. I think if this were made/remade today, they'd probably stretch it out into a whole miniseries.

Maybe all that is a symptom of its hasty production, but I've noticed older comics tend to be a bit dense to read anyway, partially because they liked to have one entire story per issue and partly because they're much more wordy, depending on giant boxes of exposition and dialogue where nowadays comic book creators rely a little more on the pictures to tell the story.

Brian Cronin: Heck, Joe Casey and Phil Noto literally DID stretch it into a whole miniseries, right?

Eileen Gonzalez: I just googled that real quick, and it turns out yes, yes they did.

Brian Cronin: That's interesting, because I think that that, in a way, is a reflection of the fact that this issue probably WAS more art-driven than anything. In other words, because they had to get this done quicker than normal, I imagine Kirby had a pretty free hand in just doing what he wanted with the plot here, which, in turn, led to Stan Lee adding a bunch of words to mold the story in the direction that he wanted to take Kirby's artwork. That's a weird sort of imperfection that a lot of these early "Marvel Method" stories have, where Lee is dragging what the artist has drawn in the direction he wants it to go. And the result is, as you note, a lot of wordiness.

Eileen Gonzalez: That's probably true. I remember reading that Jack Kirby was an amazingly prolific artist. Once the muse got him, he'd just keep producing page after page until the story was done, and those stories do tend to have a lot of details and go in many directions. (I remember reading his series The Eternals from the 1970s and thinking what a busy imagination he must have had!) So Stan Lee did probably have his work cut out for him in adding in the dialogue and making everything flow.

Brian Cronin: Of course, the problem we have is that we'll never know how much that differs from the TYPICAL Kirby/Lee issue. I mention Kirby likely having a freer hand here because of the deadline issues (Daredevil #1 wouldn't come out for SIX MONTHS and yet Avengers #1 was released the same month as X-Men #1, so think about how quickly this must have been put together to fit into DD's old spot), but for all I know, this was no different than how all of the early Avengers issues were plotted.

What do you think of Loki's plan here? So the whole formation of the Avengers was just to get Thor to come to Asgard? Doesn't Thor come to Asgard, like, all of the time?

Eileen Gonzalez: It does seem a little over complicated, but most Silver Age plots were, so my reaction to that was basically "yup, seems legit." My main issue here is that Loki was able to enact this plan at all. He's supposedly imprisoned on the Isle of Silence as punishment for previous crimes, and yet he's able to mentally travel to Earth and cause all this trouble while Odin either doesn't notice or doesn't care. That's both a terrible criminal justice system and terrible parenting.

Brian Cronin: That sounds like Odin perfectly, though.

Eileen Gonzalez: Yes, very on-brand for Odin there

Brian Cronin: We are also lucky that Loki enjoys narrating everything he is doing. Who are you talking to up there, buddy?

Eileen Gonzalez: I guess if I was imprisoned on the Isle of Silence with no one but trolls for company, I'd enjoy talking to myself too

Brian Cronin: My new headcanon is there is a little rat that he adopted, a la the film Ben, and that is who he is narrating to.

Eileen Gonzalez: He keeps it in his helmet--those horns are hollow

Brian Cronin: Now am I imagining a cover of "Ben" for the new Loki TV series.

Eileen Gonzalez: Loki should have a fluffy little minion to tell his troubles to every night after his plans inevitably fail... again

Brian Cronin: So basically like "Pinky and the Brain."

Eileen Gonzalez: Ha! I'd watch it

Page 2: [valnet-url-page page=2 paginated=0 text='Discussing the Teen Brigade...']

Brian Cronin: I honestly don't know if it is a coincidence or not, but the first appearance of the Justice League has them being helped out by a teenager and here, the Avengers are basically formed by a group of teens using ham radios (much like they would be using the internet today (or their cellphones, I suppose). I believe that's actually what Casey ended up having the "Teen Brigade" use in the aforementioned Avengers: Origin miniseries). Do you think the addition of the Teen Brigade added anything of note to the proceedings?

Eileen Gonzalez: I've never been a big fan of the Teen Brigade, to be honest. The only one with a personality to speak of is Rick Jones; the rest barely even get names, and that's not till later issues. I can understand Rick's presence here, since the Hulk was allegedly causing trouble and Rick is the Hulk's only friend--of course he'd want to get help for him. Not sure what all those other kids are doing here. It only takes one kid to operate a ham radio, I assume. (On a side note, were ham radios that popular with teens in the '60s? Because that's how the Teen Titans got most of their calls for help back then too.)

Of course, I only know of the Teen Brigade from these old Avengers comics. If they appear elsewhere, I'm unaware of it (minus Rick Jones, who I know a little more about). (edited)

Brian Cronin: Their only real utility was in these Avengers issues. They were in the first Hulk series, but yeah, only Rick ever really did anything. You just know that Willie thinks that he is the star of Avengers #1 and he can't understand why no one ever talks about him.

In their first appearance in the final issue of the first Incredible Hulk series (talk about bad timing, they debuted just as the series ended), there were, like, almost two dozen members, so it is a shame for them that they basically have always been "Rick Jones and three other dudes" ever since.

Eileen Gonzalez: In some ways I almost want to compare them to Etta Candy and the Holliday College girls from the early Wonder Woman comics: there's a whole lot of them, but only one ever gets a real role. The rest are just background filler.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, Holliday Girl #4 could have been a star! She could have been a contender!

Eileen Gonzalez: Teen Brigade/Holliday Girls team-up!

Brian Cronin: Of course, the saddest part of this issue is that for whatever the Teen Brigade do, they do more than the Wasp does in this issue. The Wasp sure does not fare well in this comic, does she?

Eileen Gonzalez: Ugh, yeah, that's one of my biggest pet peeves about these early comics. All the Wasp gets to do is get captured, get knocked unconscious and fly away to fetch a big strong man to come help. That, and come up with the team name. You'd think she could at least throw a punch once in a while, but nope. Oh, and flirt with everyone to make Ant-Man jealous. She does that too.

Brian Cronin: She even gets to delay Ant-Man from answering the distress call because she's doing her makeup! It's interesting, there is this big tangential plot where Thor just goes to Asgard and confronts Loki and a bunch of trolls.

It just occurred to me right this moment that could it be possible that Kirby just took some pages he had already done for a Thor story and then just added framing sequences around those pages?

Eileen Gonzalez: It does feel like that, now that you mention it

Brian Cronin: It's seriously a 4-5 page plot that has nothing to do with anything else in the issue. And it actually does read like a typical Thor comic from that time. Hmmm... I guess that could have helped if they were trying to get the comic book out quickly. Just re-purpose some other pages.

Eileen Gonzalez: Either that, or Kirby just defaulted to "writing Thor" mode in the middle of the story

Brian Cronin: Yeah, that's certainly a possibility, too. Kirby loved Thor. I sort of like that idea, "Ugh, who cares about Ant-Man and Wasp and the circus? Wouldn't we all just rather see Thor fight some trolls in Asgard? I know I would!"

Eileen Gonzalez: If I remember correctly, Kirby didn't like Ant-Man all that much, so...

Page 3: [valnet-url-page page=3 paginated=0 text='Talking Mechano...']

Brian Cronin: We have to talk about Mechano, the life-like robot who is clearly just Hulk with clown makeup on his face. Are the citizens of the Marvel Universe just the most easily duped people around?

They are so quick to believe everything is a form of advertising. And yet they are also willing to believe that there is a giant green-skinned super strong robot named Mechano that has nothing to do with the Hulk. "The Hulk? That's just an urban legend. He's just an advertising ploy! Now Mechano, that's just plain logical. He's a giant life-like super strong robot at this circus in the middle of nowhere. That tracks."

Eileen Gonzalez: It's not even good clown make up. It's just a little bit around his eyes and mouth!

Eileen Gonzalez: Maybe Hulk just told them he was a robot and they bought it

Eileen Gonzalez: And how long has he been on the run that he's able to establish himself as a circus act? The Avengers aren't real good at their jobs if it takes them DAYS to track down a giant green man

Eileen Gonzalez: I feel like there's a whole story there that's missing. How did the Hulk find this circus? How did he convince them he was a robot? Did he even need to convince them, or did they just assume that this obvious non-robot was a robot?

Brian Cronin: That is why there was a whole other miniseries for just this issue. There was so much for Casey and Noto to unpack!

Eileen Gonzalez: Honestly, I need to track that down

Brian Cronin: Joe is a huge Avengers fan and as a result, he has done a lot of continuity inserts featuring the Avengers that are both well done and also really respectful towards the original material. His Mechano stuff is impressively touching.

Page 4: [valnet-url-page page=4 paginated=0 text='The Avengers did not seem built to last...']

Brian Cronin: Years ago, my wife and I attended a wedding of a friend of hers from work and we just knew right away that there was no way that this marriage was going to work out (it did not). Did you get a similar impression by the ending of Avengers #1? Was there any way that "Hey, guy who is always on the run that we were just fighting a second ago, want to be one a superhero team with us?" would ever work out?

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, the Hulk doesn't even look like he wants to join. He explicitly says "I'd rather be with you than against you" and then invites himself onto the team for his own protection. And I don't blame him, to be honest--the Avengers spent the whole issue throwing tires at him and insulting him. They're just the Hulk's best option to avoid getting chased around by others at the moment, but they're not a GOOD option in his eyes. (edited)

You can smell the inevitable conflict coming a mile away

Brian Cronin: Also, you have to love that Wasp's one big takeaway from this issue, naming the team, isn't even like, "Well, we just avenged the Hulk's reputation from Loki's attempt to discredit him" or whatever, but rather simply "Hey, the Avengers sounds like a cool name, right?" It doesn't bode well for your team when your name is literally just, "That sounds kind of cool, right?" I suppose it beats Professor X lying to the X-Men about the origin of their name. "It's because of your x-tra powers!" "Oh, not because your name is Professor X?" "Nope, total coincidence! It's all about x-tra powers!"

Eileen Gonzalez: I mean at least that means she technically wasn't completely useless? She did this one single thing

Brian Cronin: Take THAT, nameless Teen Brigade members #3 and #4!

Eileen Gonzalez: Thor sure seems confident in the new team, though. "We'll never be beaten!"

Brian Cronin: "We all have different powers, so with Wasp's ability to fly around and do nothing combined with Hulk and Thor's might, we could really have something here!"

Eileen Gonzalez: I think the ants did more than either Ant-Man or Wasp this issue. They should have gotten first crack at team membership

Brian Cronin: Man, nameless Teen Brigade Members #3 and #4 are really falling down the MVP charts this issue. They're now even below "pile of ants."

Eileen Gonzalez: Well hey, the ants made Hulk fall into a pit at the circus AND trapped Loki in a lead-lined tank. They deserve a little credit

Brian Cronin: I'm surprised that those irradiated ants never bit anyone and spread superpowers around.

Eileen Gonzalez: There's another whole miniseries waiting to happen

There's not really much of an audience participation element in this particular column, but I guess you could write in if you have stuff you'd like to see us discuss in future Avengers issues! Drop me a line at brianc@cbr.com!