This is "From a Different Point of View," a feature where I discuss a comic book series with other people. Ever since the pandemic began, I've been doing twice-weekly reader chats about notable comic book crossovers, storylines or miniseries. We started with Secret Wars and then we did Knightfall and now we're starting with Maximum Carnage!
Each time around, I'll share a chunk of our discussion.
When last we checked in on Maximum Carnage, we were discussing Spectacular Spider-Man #201, Maximum Carnage Part 5, "Over the Line," by J.M. DeMatteis and Sal Buscema, with letters by Joe Rosen and colors by Bob Sharen, edited by Danny Fingeroth and Rob Tokar.
Carnage has escaped from custody and gone on a rampage in Manhattan, along with Shriek, Doppelganger and his newest addition to the team, Demogoblin. Spider-Man, meanwhile, has teamed up with Venom and Black Cat to try to stop them (as well as Cloak, whose partner, Dagger, was seemingly murdered by Shriek), even though Mary Jane begs him to stop to keep himself safe.
The heroes had just recently suffered a loss against the villains and Venom and Black Cat are both upset that Spider-Man stayed behind to help them rather than chase after Carnage by himself. Black Cat and Venom then split from Spider-Man and Spidey...went to Aunt May's house in Forest Hills?!? His father then gave him a dark speech about how the world is evil and you have to do whatever you can to survive. A shaken Peter heads back to the fight, questioning all of his beliefs. Once there, he sees that a riot has broken out on the city streets seemingly unconnected to Carnage's mayhem. Spider-Man is NOT pleased by this, and he's already sort of cracking up, so...
What happens next?
Brian Cronin: And now, that ending
Brian Cronin: Woo boy
Brian Cronin: That ending.
IntriguedStranger: That darn ol' parker luck has finally hit mass murder it seems
Brian Cronin: Like I said before, once DeMatteis bought in on the idea of this being about how good/light wins in the end.
Brian Cronin: Over dark/evil
Brian Cronin: He REALLY leaned into it.
Tom A.: This really does feel like Kingdom Hearts.
Sean Whitmore: If I remember right, NOTHING comes of Spidey's vow here.
Sean Whitmore: His version of "no mercy" is teaming up with Venom again.
IntriguedStranger: I will say that a lot of folks might find it corny but once Captain America shows up the whole thing feels less claustrophobic
IntriguedStranger: even in later chapters when theyre overwhelemed
Writerboy: You also have to wonder if Pete killed any of those people piling onto him
Tom A.: Spider-Man is never any good at following through on his promises.
IntriguedStranger: its not as oppressive as the early issues
Writerboy: He eggs Firestar on to kill Carnage for, like, a minute in the next issue of Spectacular
Brian Cronin: Yeah, honestly, this isn't out of line as similar shouts
Brian Cronin: In old issues.
Brian Cronin: Like when Aunt May is missing in one of Conway's earliest issues
Sean Whitmore: I think even there he has to be talked into it first
Brian Cronin: And Peter is looking to find her
Brian Cronin: And he ignores some people in trouble while trying to find her
Brian Cronin: And he's like, "That's it! Spider-MAn is cutting out! No more!"
Tom A.: Yeah, like when he vowed to kill the Green Goblin after Gwen's death.
Brian Cronin: Great example, Tom.
Writerboy: That last page is a really good page
Brian Cronin: Tying in the fire from the first page is brilliant, visually.
Writerboy: And the little "halo" around Spidey from the backlighting
Sean Whitmore: I think the last time I read a "Spidey goes dark" story was the first arc of that Spidey/Deadpool series
Sean Whitmore: It soooooo did not work.
IntriguedStranger: I remember not liking the idea during Dan Slott's run of the moment where peter ignores someone in trouble cause hes trying to reassert control over his body but as you point out Brian, there are examples to this sort of stuff
IntriguedStranger: i know it was an accident but that time Spidey accidentally kills someone during the Spider-man Wolverine team up always felt tonally off for the character but leans into trying to make the world of the character murkier.
Brian Cronin: Yeah, Spider-MAn vs. Wolverine was just tonally off period.
Tom A.: I think the title "Over the line" refers to how Peter yells about "trying so hard to draw a moral line."
Tom A.: It's a reference to Peter being all no more Mr. Nice Guy.
Brian Cronin: Yeah, I think you're correct, Tom.
Tom A.: If only Venom were here, then he could feel good about Peter saying he was "right."
Sean Whitmore: Venom starts dancing with the corpse like Lestat
Flavio Sette: Accidental deaths are... tricky. Post-Crisis, Batman had a few minor moments like that, but those were in stories that aren't particularly important, so you can always ignore them, which I do. But with Spider-Man/Wolverine, I actually kinda like it.
Brian Cronin: I think the death wasn't awful, but the whole issue had tone issues.
IntriguedStranger: I think it's so random and it's not really carried on beyond the story
Flavio Sette: Let me rephrase: having a character who refuses to kill accidentally kill someone is tricky.
Brian Cronin: A lot of "Stupid Spider-Man, how dumb are you for thinking that you could get involved in this stuff."
Flavio Sette: And I'm reminded of the cool call-back to Spidey's SM/W costume in the wedding issue. I dug that call-back.
Brian Cronin: And then Ned's throat is sliced
Brian Cronin: To mess with another writer's story
Brian Cronin: The whole thing was weird.
Tom A.: Not to mention how Spider-Man acts like he's never fought anybody like Wolverine, when he's faced monsters like the Lizard or Vermin by that point.
Writerboy: He'd also fought the actual Wolverine before
Tom A.: Along with the entire X-Men. And won.
Brian Cronin: Okay, folks, we will see what "No Mercy" means for Spider-Man on Monday.
Brian Cronin: I bet it involves his ribs hurting.
Sean Whitmore: Can't wait, you can all tell me what Liz Allen subplots I'm missing
IntriguedStranger: Actually mentioning Venom, I was never sure if this story was holding his nihilism to the fire? or was condoning it. venom's arc is very choppy here. I know we're in awkward Venom is a huge character anti hero thing
Flavio Sette: Yeah, I haven't read that issue yet, so I'm in the dark once again!
Flavio Sette: Flying blind over here!!
Writerboy: I don't think they really bothered with arcs for Venom at this point
IntriguedStranger: yeah he's just there to make it more extreme or whatever.
Brian Cronin: Yep
Writerboy: And I'm saying that as someone who read all his minis until like 1997
Brian Cronin: Hah
Next time, we see how well Spider-Man's reaction is carried over to the next issue (hint - not very well). If you have any Maximum Carnage thoughts, feel free to share them at brianc@cbr.com!