This is "From a Different Point of View," a feature where I discuss a comic book series with other people. This time around, due to everyone having to self-isolate, I figured I'd do a special edition where I discuss the original Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars series with whatever readers that wanted to chat about it!
We continue with Secret Wars #5, "The Battle of Four Armies!" by Jim Shooter, Bob Layton, John Beatty, Christie Scheele and Joe Rosen.
Secret Wars #5, "The Battle of Four Armies," by Jim Shooter, Bob Layton, John Beatty, Christie Scheele and Joe Rosen
Avash: "At last, the X Men strike back"
Avash: About time, they have been beaten up again and again so far
DavidJustDavid: I was very happy to see this cover back in the day, finally some X-respect?
Brian Cronin: True, it is a fine cover. I imagine on the Matt Bib cover rankings this would likely be towards the top half of the covers of the series.
Brian Cronin: Matt has to come to another one of these chats so that we can confirm.
ABarfield: I was very surprised by this cover back in the day. I was 7, we had stopped at a convenience store, and when did Storm get a mohawk?
Avash: It's good, but didn't come closer to last issue one
DavidJustDavid: The art was okay, but it was more the sentiment behind it, that maybe the X-Men were going to win a fight for once.
Brian Cronin: True, they're definitely meant to look cool on the cover.
EricMichael: I always wondered if that was Kang in the bottom left. Like did they know he was dead when tey did the cover?
Brian Cronin: That's gotta be Kang, yeah,
Brian Cronin: Who knows what Layton was told.
Brian Cronin: As a fill-in, he might not have known much.
StoneGold: Logan's claws are longer than his arms
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Brian Cronin: The opening splash reminds me that a lot of Secret Wars
Brian Cronin: Is people staring at something.
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EricMichael: In honor of this issue, do we recap all these chats? LOL
Brian Cronin: True, we should have a chart explaining who we all are.
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Tom A.: And we begin with what really should have been the cliffhanger to last issue.
Flavio Sette: I love this design for Galactus' ship. All Möbius strip-esque.
Brian Cronin: Yeah, it's really neat.
DavidJustDavid: I liked when they'd have angles on the ship blocking the whole sky.
Tom A.: Classic Kirby design for Taa II.
Avash: Btw, why does Shooter have an editor? Did anybody dare to correct him back then?
Brian Cronin: Shooter hadn't written a comic in a couple of years, so he actually relied on his other editors a lot for this project.
Brian Cronin: As they had to let him know what the deal was with the various characters.
DavidJustDavid: I wonder if any editors were telling him to be nicer to the X-Men, they're the flagship book now!
EricMichael: A year after this, Mike Zeck did a signing at my store. I asked about the X-Men's mistreatment, and he just joked that "I guess Jim was mad at Chris."
Tom A.: And Chris was mad at Jim.
Brian Cronin: I doubt any of the X-Men stuff was actually based on any actual animus.
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StoneGold: Always stinks for the fill-in artist on stuff like this. Absolutely nothing wrong with Bob Layton. Except he's not Zeck.
Brian Cronin: I think Beatty did a good job making Layton look close enough to Zeck to not be shockingly jarring.
Avash: I'd say Layton did a pretty good job
Brian Cronin: It's not like they went from Zeck to, say, Steve Ditko or whatever.
Brian Cronin: Something that would have been exceptionally jarring.
Flavio Sette: Man, who would've been, like, the ideal fill-in artist here?
StoneGold: It's not that it's that off. It's as much, same like Infinity Gauntlet. Everyone always forgets that Ron Lim drew the one issue anyone really cares about.
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Tom A.: And now its time for a drug-induced recap.
Brian Cronin: Yes, Johnny and Zsaji taking a break for a recap was definitely an odd scene.
Brian Cronin: "Galactus is here, but hey, if you want to mess around, I'm not going to say no."
Avash: What was the point of this recap btw? Did they think readers already forgot what happened 5 issues in?
StoneGold: I'm assuming if Secret Wars was done today, you could find some kind of code sheet for what wuzzername is saying.
StoneGold: "Every issue is someone's first."
Tom A.: Bob Layton draws Ultron very oddly in the recap page. Instead of his classic Jack O' Lantern maw, he just has a small square, which makes him look harmless.
StoneGold: Johnny looks like Layton was using some Byrne reference for his face, but like the wrong hair.
Brian Cronin: Johnny is basically Captain Kirk here. "If the alien lady wants to fool around, I'm game."
ABarfield: He tells her he loves her. What a player.
Brian Cronin: Yeah, even Kirk wouldn't tell an alien lady that he loved her.
Brian Cronin: Not cool, Johnny!
Tom A.: It's Crystal all over again.
Brian Cronin: Although, I'm assuming she's giving off some sort of mind-altering vibes, right?
Brian Cronin: Why else would Colossus and Johnny both fall for her SO FREAKING HARD
Brian Cronin: It's gotta be that when she heals you, there's a connection established.
Flavio Sette: Yeah, I think the idea is that her powers make people love her or something? But only sometimes?
Brian Cronin: They don't say that explicitly that that's what is going on with her, but it's gotta be that.
EricMichael: I always understood it that the more she healed you, the stronger your feelings for her got.
Brian Cronin: That's a good take, Eric.
ABarfield: Yet, Spidey doesn't go for her. Maybe his spidey-sense overcame whatever she does.
Flavio Sette: Yeah, maybe Eric.
Flavio Sette: But She-Hulk and Spidey weren't exactly swooning after she healed them.
StoneGold: She-Hulk was, but like a lot of Jen's romances, it was off-panel.
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StoneGold: Ah, Colossus. Is he a pedophile? Is he not? Guess we'll find out soon!
Tom A.: Shooter couldn't think of a better way to split Colossus and Kitty. Apparently Colossus just saying "you're too young, just give it up already" wouldn't do it.
Brian Cronin: And yes, Colossus' thoughts are bee-zarre.
Brian Cronin: "When she's old enough, things are going to be great."
Brian Cronin: And yet he's still dreaming about her in, I guess, a nightgown?
Brian Cronin: It's kind of off. Like Layton had never actually seen Kitty Pryde before.
Flavio Sette: Or maybe her "wedding dress" from she almost married Caliban?
Avash: Well, Colossus does say he has plans for him and Kitty, "for when she is older"
StoneGold: And then he's hugging his weird LEGO pillow
Brian Cronin: And talking about how he knows his wish would be to get her to legal age.
EricMichael: That pillow panel always creeped me out as a kid.
DavidJustDavid: Lego pillow! Never noticed that, love it
ABarfield: Anybody know the back story there? Did Shooter put his foot down on Colossus/Kitty and this was how he dealt with it, or did Claremont say, "Give me something that breaks up Colossus/Kitty"?
Brian Cronin: It's unclear, ABarfield. Shooter didn't even recall when I asked him about
Brian Cronin: As noted before, he relied on the editors a lot.
Brian Cronin: So it's likely that Louise Simonson/Ann Nocenti told him to break Kitty and Colossus up.
Brian Cronin: The only question is whether Claremont was pat of that plan.
Avash: What was the reader reaction to Colossus/Kitty back then?
Brian Cronin: I doubt readers much cared. It was the 1980s.
Brian Cronin: You could say stuff like, "Deathstroke's bad, but it's that 15 year old who's fucking him that's really in control" and people wouldn't even freak out.
EricMichael: If the editor doesn't print the letters, you are left thinking that only you cared.
Flavio Sette: Piotr hasn't been in a lot of relationships since Zsaji, right? There was Callisto, then Kitty again, and that's pretty much it.
Avash: There was Domino
StoneGold: Pete's been more with Domino than anyone.
Brian Cronin: Yeah, the Colossus/Domino relationship went on for quite a while.
ABarfield: He lost his virginity to that Savage Land gal and got her pregnant, right?
EricMichael: He had a brief fling with Rogue
Brian Cronin: Talk about, "Now you two date!" Colossus and Domino were such a random pairing.
StoneGold: It's the classic "We're so damaged, so we're just fucking, but now we've been doing it long enough maybe this is something?" Until another writer pairs them off with someone else
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Tom A.: Cyclops still moping that he should totally be the leader, gosh darn it.
Brian Cronin: Yeah, a really bad look for Cyclops.
Brian Cronin: Like, I'm not even against the notion that perhaps he might be better off leading.
Brian Cronin: But if you think that, Cyclops, SAY IT.
EricMichael: That is some class-A sulking in that bottom panel
Flavio Sette: Yeah, it is worth pointing out that Scott hadn't really rejoined the X-Men at this point since he'd left after "Jean's" "death". He’s gone on a few adventures with them (against Magneto and Mastermind), but this was still very much Storm's team.
Brian Cronin: Don't just mope about it.
Flavio Sette: So it makes some sense he's having to adjust to taking orders from her.
Brian Cronin: Xavier is acting like such a tool during this series.
StoneGold: PROFESSOR XAVIER IS A JERK!!!
EricMichael: The Prof flip-flopped so much
Brian Cronin: He really did.
Avash: Xavier probably should handle it better though. If he wants to work with Magneto, he should at least make sure he doesn't give orders. X Men are rightfully pissed.
Flavio Sette: Can't blame this one on your repressed dark side, can ya, Chuck?
Brian Cronin: Oh, he'll find a way.
Brian Cronin: Also, what does Cyclops mean by "For the moment, anyways"? Was Cyclops planning a coup?
Tom A.: He was already planning on challenging her to a duel for leadership, but waited until she was depowered so he'd have an advantage. And yet he still lost.
Avash: Eh, he didn't lose really, Storm cheated
Flavio Sette: Or maybe Scott wanted to set up an impromptu election.
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Brian Cronin: I absolutely adore Absorbing Man and Thunderball comparing their balls.
Tom A.: Although I think that real wrecking balls are much bigger than prison balls and chain, but whatever.
DavidJustDavid: That's an adorable ball n' chain comparison.
StoneGold: Was Volcana supposed to be drawn chunkier? Because as far as I can tell, she's just Caucasian She-Hulk
Brian Cronin: She's definitely supposed to be heavier, yeah.
Brian Cronin: It doesn't come across like that at all, though.
StoneGold: You'd never know it from the art.
Tom A.: Comic book artists at the time weren't very good at drawing different body types for women.
EricMichael: Stone, Zeck definitely drew her as heavier
Brian Cronin: So yeah, having them call her a cow doesn't track at all.
Brian Cronin: She's basically Big Barda.
EricMichael: A new character + fill in artist = confusion
Avash: I gotta give props though, this whole Piledriver incident was funny
StoneGold: "You filthy fatbag!"
Tom A.: At least Piledriver gets the closest thing to a distinct personality trait he's ever had: he's a fat-shaming misogynist idiot. I guess it's more than Bulldozer has.
Brian Cronin: Good point, Tom, Piledriver has now moved ahead of Bulldozer in the personality rankings.
DavidJustDavid: Thunderball's a scientist, but this whole series he's just another big dumb goof on the team.
Brian Cronin: Bulldozer remains on the bottom and I believe he stays there the entire time.
DavidJustDavid: "Mine's a wrecking ball..."
ABarfield: This is a great scene. The way they just turn and start whistling.
EricMichael: Nonchalant at its finest
Avash: Most writers just ignore the fact that Thunderball is supposed to be smart
StoneGold: No one ever remembers Thunderball is a scientist, except Dwayne McDuffie.
Avash: I love the scene where others turn their back though
Tom A.: They know Molecule Man is above their weight class after they saw the mountain stunt. Piledriver is just that dumb.
StoneGold: And again, I want to know when and why they started drawing him with a beanie on top of his costume.
Avash: It's like from a sitcom
EricMichael: I was stunned when McDuffie wrote Thunderball as smart in Damage Control
Tom A.: Coates also remembered that Thunderball was smart in his Black Panther run.
Brian Cronin: McDuffie was big on continuity like that.
Brian Cronin: Especially when he felt that others weren't following continuity.
ABarfield: I'm imagining him seeking out Doc Ock for real conversation when Doom won't take his calls.
Flavio Sette: When Owen leaves Piledriver to die, that almost seems to be setting up something, right? Like, despite mostly wanting to be alone, Molecule Man will eventually prove just as cold-blooded as Doom and his ilk (at least for a while). But that kinda goes nowhere, from what I recall.
Avash: This encounter does show Reese becoming more confident, although they weren't really consistent with that
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Brian Cronin: Enchantress' scenes are so odd.
Brian Cronin: Was it simply that Shooter needed more female villains?
Brian Cronin: Because she seems like she's in her own story.
Tom A.: Yeah, grovelling in front of a mortal seems off for her.
Avash: What was Enchantress even playing at?
StoneGold: Doom is no mere mortal!!!
Avash: They are working together!
EricMichael: This isn't about Enchantress; it's about Shooter showing off Doom.
Avash: Then she starts groveling!
Avash: So out of character
Brian Cronin: True, Eric, but he's also already shown an interest in how immortals react to stuff.
StoneGold: Doom's desk kind of makes it look like he's sitting in Prof X's 90s chair.
Flavio Sette: That's kinda the main theme he's interested in, at least after he started working for Marvel.
Brian Cronin: Like how she argues that Thor is more connected to her than anyone else, due to theme both being immortals.
ABarfield: That's a great drawing of Doom when she's begging. He looks really imposing there, And not in the usual way.
Brian Cronin: Doom's little "I do not fear death" speech seems like a bit like word salad.
Brian Cronin: I don't think he actually has much of a point there.
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Tom A.: And now Magneto screws up again. Great idea abandoning your human allies for no reason to join up with the guy who has tried to murder you and your students countless times.
Avash: Yeah, I was waiting for a follow-up
Avash: The panel of Prof X and Magneto trying to contact Galactus looks like from a cool poster
StoneGold: As we all know, magnetism increases psychic ability.
Brian Cronin: Yeah, that's a nice panel.
Flavio Sette: Shooter and Layton do something really great in this issue (which they also did last issue) where they show what the villain and the mutant factions are up to before then going back to the main hero faction and showing them getting out of whatever the main pickle they're in. It sorta leaves you in suspense and heightens the tension.
StoneGold: Is this the first time Reed Richards has ever asked anyone if he could do something before he did it?
StoneGold: Perhaps only?
Brian Cronin: It was only a courtesy ask. He was obviously going to do it no matter what.
Avash: Reed's plan to reason with Galactus seems ill thought off
Avash: He said before they should not get in Galactus's radar, and then proceeded to do so
Avash: Was the fact that Magneto has latent psychic abilities mentioned regularly?
Brian Cronin: No, not regularly.
ABarfield: He and Chuck used to commune on the astral plane back when Stan did whatever the hell he wanted.
Brian Cronin: Tom's right that Xavier seems way too tied to Magneto. What has Magneto even shown them this series?
EricMichael: His previous resistance to Prof's TP was always chalked up to his will.
Avash: I always thought it was a once and forgotten thing
Brian Cronin: His plan was to basically murder everyone in their way.
Flavio Sette: Sometimes it's from his helmet, though, right? But this time around Xavier says it's specifically a latent psychic power.
Brian Cronin: The mental powers came from the helmet later on, yeah.
Brian Cronin: And after the movies, the helmet protected him from Xavier's powers.
Brian Cronin: And Xavier's like, "Hmm...he wants to murder everyone. But he IS a mutant, so I guess we should work with him."
Avash: Which is funny, since that was Juggernaut's deal
Avash: The helmet, I mean
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Tom A.: The robot Galactus sends to deal with the heroes looks cool and all, but part of me wishes it had been the Punisher robot from the original Galactus Trilogy.
EricMichael: I was just typing that Avash
DavidJustDavid: Thing gets to do stuff!
Brian Cronin: Yeah, I wonder why it WASN'T the Punisher.
EricMichael: I would guess the Punisher was replaced to avoid the name confusion
StoneGold: It looks like a souped up Punisher. Same feet and hands, different head.
Brian Cronin: Gotta love Thing's out of nowhere Coneheads reference
DavidJustDavid: This is a fun little fight.
StoneGold: Ben was always about obscure, anachronistic pop culture references.
DavidJustDavid: Human Torch in nova mode looks like Silver Surfer.
Brian Cronin: But doesn't Shooter use the same trick with the Torch later on with Ultron?
Flavio Sette: I'd like to think the Thing was sick of Hulk's non-stop dickishness and that's why he set him up to take the first hit. He even gets that nice little dig in, "He must be a lover, 'cause he sure ain't a fighter".
ABarfield: I dig that panel of Cap, Thing and Torch. That's how you sell toys.
Brian Cronin: Seems kind of weird to have two different bad guys taken down the same exact way.
Avash: Hawkeye must be sad that someone else is taking over his role of pop culture reference
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Brian Cronin: Another great panel to sell toys is that bit with the villains attacking.
Tom A.: Piledriver and Bulldozer piloting a weird alien walker again. Too lazy to fight on the ground.
DavidJustDavid: Glad to see the villain's at-at thingie again.
StoneGold: Dr. Octopus, master of walking on his robot arms, which he isn't doing because he's on a vehicle.
EricMichael: Yeah, but that is toy box art waiting to be printed
Brian Cronin: True.
Flavio Sette: And, of course, since Ock's inside it, the heroes are out of his striking range.
Avash: Were all these vehicles also part of the toy line?
Brian Cronin: No, Avash, that's the weird thing
Brian Cronin: They made vehicles for the toy line
Brian Cronin: But not any of the ones used in the comic.
ABarfield: The only vehicle I remember is the Doom Roller.
Avash: That's ... Odd
EricMichael: ditto for the base
Avash: Especially given the vehicle promotions reminding me of Masters of the Universe minicomics
Avash: Why is this issue called the battle of 4 armies though? Who's the fourth? Galactus?
EricMichael: I'd say Galactus is the fourth army
StoneGold: Galactus isn't really on a side, though. I think Shooter just threw him in to make everything seem bigger.
StoneGold: There wasn't a lot of unity between the comic and the toy line.
StoneGold: Like, half the characters in the toy line weren't in the comic
Brian Cronin: As Shooter noted, once they gave him a list of characters they wanted in the initial toy line.
Brian Cronin: That was it.
Brian Cronin: Oh, and them naming the series.
Brian Cronin: They named the series, gave him a list of character in the first series that he had to include and then he was left to his own devices.
StoneGold: And then stuff like the outside box saying that Iron Man is Rhodey, but his Secret Shield revealed him to be Tony Stark.
EricMichael: And then they released Zemo, Falcon, and Hobgoblin in wave 2
Brian Cronin: Right, there was no connection at that point.
StoneGold: And why Iron Man had a laser gun...
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Brian Cronin: Captain Marvel remains in her human form for no reason, right?
Tom A.: Piledriver's costume is still damaged when he's on the walker, but 2 pages later it's intact again.
Avash: Once again heroes are completely useless for no reason
Brian Cronin: The whole series is worth it for just the sight of Wolverine karate kicking Ultron, as the X-Men finally show up.
DavidJustDavid: And Nightcrawler pulling Enchantress's hair.
StoneGold: X-Men, attack! But Magneto, just kind of stand there doing nothing.
ABarfield: Where did they even come from? Did they just walk up the street while nobody was looking?
Avash: I'm guessing that's why Galactus was included in the series, because of Mattel's insistance, or it didn't make much sense to put freaking Galactus on one side
EricMichael: Ok, Bulldozer at least is shooting in the wide panel
EricMichael: Piledriver is empty-handed and in the back row
ABarfield: Yeah, you know the Enchantress's heart isn't in it when she gets taken out like that.
Brian Cronin: Colossus is doing way too well.
EricMichael: HE IS FIGHTING FOR LOVE!
Brian Cronin: While yammering about his teenage girlfreind
Avash: Why didn't Prof X use him abilities to take all the villains down?
ABarfield: "He pulled my hair. I'm going to just pretend to be unconscious now."
StoneGold: YOU ARE WHAT KEEPS ME FROM JAILBAIT!
Brian Cronin: "I WILL LIVE UNTIL SHE REACHES THE AGE OF CONSENT!"
Avash: Lol
DavidJustDavid: Shooter writes a nice little essay about how majestic Storm is. Methinks he's trying to make amends with the X-fans at this point.
ABarfield: And yet makes sure to point out that Thor doesn't give a shit.
Brian Cronin: Yeah, what an odd bit.
Brian Cronin: "Phsaw, I could have done that."
DavidJustDavid: Yeah, I always loved that Thor exception.
Avash: Thor is just watching from the sidelines
Tom A.: So Wrecker hits Colossus once and that's enough to take him out?
Brian Cronin: Yeah, it's a weird how Colossus is kicking all of their asses, but then one hit from the Wrecker does him in
StoneGold: It is a magic crowbar to the armpit. That'll take out the best of us.
ABarfield: Did Colossus ever run into the Wrecker again? Seems like a missed opportunity to sell a few extra copies.
Brian Cronin: I don't believe so. Someone should get on that.
ABarfield: "This time he's looking!"
Brian Cronin: Cyclops makes like the Wasp
Brian Cronin: And takes out a whole bunch of powerful people in one blast.
EricMichael: I always wanted to see a Rogue vs Titania match
Tom A.: I don't really understand Xavier's logic for why they must stay apart from Captain America's group.
Avash: Xavier should be able to take down all the villains in a minute
Avash: Yet he does nothing
DavidJustDavid: And wipe their memories!
Brian Cronin: Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.
Avash: Neither does Magneto
ABarfield: True, the Enchantress doesn't shield them until, what, next issue?
Avash: What was the point of teaming up with him if he doesn't fight?
DavidJustDavid: Magneto should be ripping all these metal-based opponents apart!
Brian Cronin: "We shall be a separate force, because this way, it is easier to tell stories on each of the characters"
EricMichael: I see Charles put his jacket back on, like a proper gentleman leaving the house.
Tom A.: Bendis' Beyonder issue of New Avengers Illuminati was extremely flawed, but it at least offered an explanation for why Xavier didn't just mind-wham everyone: The Beyonder would have considered it unfair and gotten mad.
Avash: I love how Magneto gives his own justification for leaving Colossus behind
ABarfield: "This is war, cretin."
Avash: Honestly, what does Magneto bring to this team?
Brian Cronin: Magneto's justification is awesome - "Survival of the fittest!"
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StoneGold: "Thank god he ain't black, huh?"
Brian Cronin: Yeah, Iron Man really put Human Torch in his place.
Brian Cronin: How does no one realize that Iron Man is someone else?
EricMichael: Right?!
Brian Cronin: "Hey chill out Jack!"
Tom A.: Everyone knows that Tony Stark is a huge Flash Gordon fan.
StoneGold: I'm assuming the dialogue for Spider-Man going "Oh wow, that feels SO good" was after someone noticed her hand was glowing over his crotch.
EricMichael: Can't unsee that now.
Brian Cronin: That's pretty awesome.
Brian Cronin: I love how Colossus' own thoughts reflect how much of a dick he's being
Brian Cronin: "Oh, right, Kitty, right? That's her name?"
StoneGold: Why can I not picture Kitty in my mind now, like I could 8 pages ago?
EricMichael: That's why I always suspected her healing had something to do with it
Brian Cronin: Colossus is up there with characters who fare poorly, characterization-wise.
Brian Cronin: Him, Hulk, Xavier, Magneto, Wolverine, Captain Marvel to a certain extent
EricMichael: That should be a floating head recap page
Avash: Honestly, it feels like some modern writer should expand on this. Like maybe she has mind control powers. Or her healing causes you to fall in love. Something. Cause this is ridiculous.
StoneGold: I'm not sure modern writers should be going back to a character that hasn't popped up since 1985.
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DavidJustDavid: I like how Reed is trying to figure out what Galactus is up to, when he's doing what he does to every planet he visits.
DavidJustDavid: "He's up to something...but what?"
StoneGold: Galactus has come... TO PARTY DOWN!!!
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Tom A.: I gotta say, Layton's art doesn't make the interior of Galactus' ship look as impressive as Doom makes it sound like.
StoneGold: This is a terrible cliffhanger page.
ABarfield: Especially given what he ends up seeing...
EricMichael: Hey, why break tradition now?
Avash: This is probably the weakest cliffhanger so far
Flavio Sette: One thing I like, though, whereas other comic book strategists like Batman are all about contingency plans on top of contingency plans and trying to deal with the crisis at hand as soon as possible, Doom, as always, plays the long game.
Brian Cronin: It's pretty much on par with the other cliffhangers, I think
DavidJustDavid: Even the letterer seems underwhelmed by this cliffhanger.
Brian Cronin: Reed saw something last issue and that was the cliffhanger
Brian Cronin: And now Doom sees something
Tom A.: Especially since the resolution of the cliffhanger is "oh, it's just Klaw, who has gone crazy, thus justifying his out-of-character behavior".
Brian Cronin: Oh true, the resolution is awful
Brian Cronin: But the cliffhanger itself is pretty much par for the course.
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StoneGold: It is weird how much the book hinges on villains no one cares about.
StoneGold: Molecule Man, Klaw...
Tom A.: And the entire Wrecking Crew.
Avash: Why did Mattel choose them btw?
DavidJustDavid: Plus the A-list villains like Kang and Ultron don't do much at all...
Brian Cronin: They didn't choose them.
Avash: Ahh
StoneGold: Yeah, but Molecule Man and Klaw aren't cannon fodder, they're extremely important plot points.
ABarfield: They all look like He-Man figures, so I always thought the toy company picked. Interesting to see it was Shooter.
ABarfield: Absorbing Man, Wrecker, even Klaw.
Avash: Which villains did Mattel pick? Doom obviously, who else?
StoneGold: "You know who should be the focal point of this 12-issue epic? Paste Pot Pete."
Brian Cronin: Oh true, Molecule Man's role is pure ego.
Brian Cronin: Shooter had done some stuff with him in his last comic book run before this
Brian Cronin: So he figured he'd pick up on that and explore it more
Brian Cronin: Since it was a theme he was really into, the whole idea of what do you do if you have ultimate power?
Brian Cronin: And hey, who was going to tell him no?
Avash: Well, it reminded him of himself I guess
StoneGold: Also, who would have figured the big toy company crossover would be where Shooter reveals that the Human Torch is racist against black people?
Brian Cronin: The thing about the toy line is that they only told Marvel a handful of characters.
Brian Cronin: So Shooter filled in the VAST majority of the characters.
Avash: Did Mattel come up with main plot, or Shooter?
Brian Cronin: Shooter did everything.
Brian Cronin: It was literally, "Here are the characters in Series 1. Here is the name of the series. Go."
Brian Cronin: The toy line said Doom, Kang, Doctor Octopus and Magneto.
Brian Cronin: And for the heroes - Cap, Hulk, Iron Man, Spider-Man and Wolverine.
StoneGold: But no capes for anyone.
StoneGold: NO CAPES!
Avash: This is really odd, as Kang was one of the requirements, yet he was sidelined/killed off for the majority of the series
EricMichael: That is odd, as I had the Kang figure
StoneGold: Doom and Magneto had also been in the FF cartoon. But Spidey was always going to have more pull.
Tom A.: I guess that Shooter really didn't want to use him.
Brian Cronin: Yeah, clearly.
Brian Cronin: He had to INCLUDE him, but that was it.
Brian Cronin: So he was included and then quickly shuffled off to the side and even KILLED!
StoneGold: Magneto's best thing ever -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kkc_Myyye20
ABarfield: Too many chefs. There's no universe where Doom and Kang logically and reliably play well together in that environment.
Tom A.: At least Shooter was nice enough to bring him back to life at the end.
Flavio Sette: Well, you already have like 50 tech guys. Plus, this was before Busiek and Pacheco made Kang cool (or at least as cool as he is today).
ABarfield: Haha- yes- did it get a mention in Citizen Kang or Avengers Forever?
Tom A.: It was specifically not mentioned in Avengers Forever.
Flavio Sette: So yeah, if you've got Doom and Doc Ock and Ultron, do you really need Kang (at least at this time?)
EricMichael: And that is so so so not Ultron. Ultron in name only.
StoneGold: I seem to recall Doom and Kang frequently getting along OK, if only because they might be related. Until one inevitably tries to stab the other in the back.
Brian Cronin: Right, which is why Shooter mostly added cannon fodder other villains
Brian Cronin: Because he WASN'T interested in the two many cooks deal.
Avash: I mean, the character that is in this series is barely Ultron. He's basically a Doombot
ABarfield: Talk about a comedown for Ultron. This was my first exposure to most of the bad guys, and I was shocked to learn later that Ultron and Klaw and Kang were formidable.
Brian Cronin: Yeah, likely the same reason Ultron is quickly discarded.
DavidJustDavid: He's Ultron in the first issue until Galactus kills him.
Brian Cronin: He drew too much attention.
Tom A.: Still, he could have used canon fodder villains from different corners of the MU instead of including the entire Wrecking Crew.
Brian Cronin: Oh, agreed.
DavidJustDavid: Electro would've been nice, and recognizable from cartoons.
StoneGold: Yeah, but you already have two Spidey villains in the book.
Avash: If he needed tanks, Rhino or Abomination were possible contenders
Tom A.: Or the Juggernaut.
EricMichael: Spidey has the best rogue's gallery and yet there were only two used (one and a half, with Lizard disappearing)
Avash: Yeah, that too
DavidJustDavid: I will say this put the Wrecking Crew on the map in a way. I'd only seen them in the Marvel Universe Handbook prior to this, and so it was kind of neat to see them in action so soon after.
Flavio Sette: Rhino and Juggernaut would've been good picks. Maybe Grey Gargoyle.
Avash: Juggernaut would've been great
Avash: Kreel and the Crew are too similar to stand out
StoneGold: Secret Wars hit before the Masters invaded Avengers Mansion, right?
Brian Cronin: Yep, SG.
StoneGold: Because that was the WC's other big moment, giving Hercules brain damage.
Tom A.: "Putting them on the map" meant "establishing the Wrecking Crew as a team of generic goons that exist solely to job".
Flavio Sette: Even then, they got overshadowed by Goliath.
StoneGold: Well yeah, he's tall.
ABarfield: As we'll learn in a couple of issues, they're unbeatable if they have a bunch of other super strong people helping out against one hero.
Brian Cronin: Their true forte.
Brian Cronin: Okay, folks, thanks for coming out!