This is "From a Different Point of View," a feature where I discuss a comic book series with other people. This time around, due to everyone having to self-isolate, I figured I'd do a special edition where I discuss some crossovers with whichever readers that wanted to chat about them! We started off with Marvel's original Secret Wars and after a vote on Twitter, the next crossover chosen was Knightfall!

We kick things off with Batman #492, Knighfall Part 1, "Crossed Eyes and Dotty Teas," by Doug Moench and Norm Breyfogle, colors by Adrienne Roy and letters by RIchard Starkings

Brian Cronin: 19 parts, huh?

Brian Cronin: Ooookay

Tom A.: And it would be even more parts if we covered the prelude to Knightfall, including the Arkham breakout.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, honestly, if Batman #491 had more recap stuff in it, I'd consider it

Flavio Sette: That Kelley Jones cover, though. Really striking.

Flavio Sette: Batman's got cake on his boot!

Brian Cronin: But really, Batman #491 is almost just as much of a "toss into the deep end" as this one.

Brian Cronin: And since there are 19 issues, figured it wasn't worht it.

Brian Cronin: The trick here, of course, is that Denny O'Neil was planning for this story for FAR longer than most people plan for an event.

Tom A.: The cover seems kind of underwhelming for the start of such a big storyline.

Brian Cronin: The first thing was the Sword of Azrael miniseries by O'Neil and Joe Queasda, introducing Jean-Paul Valley, Azrael.

Brian Cronin: Then the Vengeance of Bane by Chuck Dixon and Graham Nolan introduced Bane and his associates.

Brian Cronin: And then Doug Moench's run on Batman began in early 1992

Flavio Sette: Planning for this must've started back in what, '91?

Tom A.: The omnibus collections that collect the entire saga are huge.

Brian Cronin: And he had spent the last five or six months of the series setting this series up.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, 1991 was when the planning began, back when Peter Milligan was writing Detective Comics.

Brian Cronin: Since then, Milligan left and Chuck Dixon took over Detective.

Flavio Sette: So right around the time they were establishing the new status quo with the new Robin they started thinking about uprooting it.

Brian Cronin: Alan Grant and Breyfogle moved to Shadow of the Bat.

Brian Cronin: And then Moench returned to the main series, along with Jim Aparo.

Brian Cronin: So this was something that had been heavily set up for months by the Bat-books.

Brian Cronin: So it's interesting reading Part 1 and seeing how it's just throwing you into the middle of a stoy.

Flavio Sette: I think Moench and Breyfogle do a nice job setting the whole thing up, though.

Brian Cronin: Agreed. The exposition was well played.

Brian Cronin: It's amusing that of their list of freed prisoners from Arkham, Film Freak just happens to be prominently featured

Flavio Sette: Speaking of the talent involved here: Moench, Breyfogle, Roy and Starkings. That's an all-star team right there.

Brian Cronin: And, of course, Breyfogle and the gang have a little fun by having Doug Moench listed as one of the escapees.

Flavio Sette: Richard Starkings is my favorite letterer, and he does a really good job here.

Tom A.: I always found it amusing that a mass breakout of Arkham Asylum was treated as a big deal, but these days it happens every few months.

Brian Cronin: And Breyfogle is there, too.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, this was probably the last time it meant something

Flavio Sette: Check out Moench's Fu Manchu Stache!

Avash: Was this the first major Arkham breakout?

Tom A.: The whole thing about the Mad Hatter having a pet chimp really didn't stick, I can't recall him being used again after this story.

Brian Cronin: Amusingly, Moench's final issue of his original run was also an Arkham breakout.

Brian Cronin: Batman #400.

Flavio Sette: 400 is a classic issue, of course.

Flavio Sette: Moench worked with a lot of great artists there and here he is with the late great Breyfogle.

CalmCivilian: Sorry Im Kinda New here. Was Knightfall The first big ,,crossover" with Batman. It definitely feels like it. After this we Contagion, No Mans Land, War Games, Night of Owls...

Brian Cronin: The Bat books had been doing a lot of crossovers before this.

Brian Cronin: But never anything close to this extent.

Brian Cronin: The biggest one before this was the storyline that introduced Tim Drake, "A Lonely Place of Dying," which was five parts split between Batman and New Titans.

Brian Cronin: So yes, going from five parts being their peak to now a NINETEEN part crossover was a huge change.

Flavio Sette: A Lonely Place of Dying's really good.

Brian Cronin: A big part of that was also the change to the release schedule, as the two main titles in this event, Batman and Detective, both double-shipped during the crossover.

CalmCivilian: Oh I know lonely place. So it was A breakthrough. Thanks!

Tom A.: Doctor Destiny is also on the list of escapees, but I don't recall him being part of this story.

Brian Cronin: I don't believe he was, Tom. He was just such a notable Arkham guy because of his Sandman appearance.

Flavio Sette: So it was basically a Batman weekly, then?

Brian Cronin: Breyfogle drew him like he appeared in those Sandman issues.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, Flavio, basically.

Flavio Sette: ‪I just realized that in Knightfall and Secret Wars both Batman and Colossus get beat-up and seriously injured by huge dudes and fall in love with women who have mysterious healing powers (although we're not covering that part of Knightfall).‬

Flavio Sette: Must've been interesting, following this story week by week.

Flavio Sette: Back in '93, I mean.

Brian Cronin: It doesn't go monthly again until Part FIFTEEN out of 19.

Flavio Sette: Wow.

Flavio Sette: The way Breyfogle draws Bruce, the stubble, the pained look on his face… he looks exhausted already.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, he does an excellent job making it clear how tired Batman was at this point.

ExcitedCharacter: Impressive that they keep weekly it for so long.

Brian Cronin: And honestly, back in the day, that was a dreary part of the lead-up to the crossover.

Brian Cronin: As Moench had to have him seem more and more tired every issue.

Tom A.: One thing I noticed is that in the previous issue Batman has the Superman armband in honor of the then-dead Superman, but in this issue he no longer has it even though it's supposed to be the same night.

Brian Cronin: Good point, Tom. I guess he was like, "Okay, that's enough of this."

Flavio Sette: Breyfogle obviously designed this Batmobile, but here he adds a few touches that really play to his strengths (not to mention all the shadows, which really heighten the effect). That car looks like it's been possessed by the devil.

Flavio Sette: No, I'm pretty sure this issue's set sometime later.

Flavio Sette: Batman mentions Mad Hatter being the first of the major villains to make a move, and they mention nine violent crimes having been committed, implying it's been a while since the breakout.

Flavio Sette: At least a day or two, I'd imagine.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, I guess a day or two makes sense.

Tom A.: True, although all the newspaper headlines cover weird stuff like "50 die in ecology disaster" but not the mass breakout.

Brian Cronin: That's just a weird sight gag

Brian Cronin: It's the "Optimist Times" versus the Gotham news

Flavio Sette: That's a reference to Exxon Valdez, though, right?

Flavio Sette: Later we get the headline "Ship stranded at port" or something like that.

Brian Cronin: It's just some weird jokes by either Starkings or Breyfogle.

Flavio Sette: "Oil tanker grounded", that's it.

Brian Cronin: Poor Tim has to be the guy who doesn't know what a haberdashery is so that Batman can fill him in on it.;

Brian Cronin: Good to know that Gotham City can support a huge hat store.

Flavio Sette: And there's Bird. Turn, turn, turn.

Flavio Sette: Bird's probably the most famous (and interesting) of Bane's thugs, right? He's a common crook from Gotham, but he's got that weird outfit. He's a falconer, which is quite unusual and, as we'll see when he fights Batman towards the end of the arc, he's a pretty decent brawler.

Brian Cronin: One of the silliest things about this whole event.

Brian Cronin: Is that Dixon gave Bane three assistants designed after Doc Savage's three assistants.

Brian Cronin: And these three, fairly nondescript assistants

Brian Cronin: Play HUGE parts in the crossover.

Tom A.: Most Bane stories after this don't use these henchmen.

Tom A.: In fact, I was surprised that Tom King brought them back.

Flavio Sette: But when they do, it's usually Bird.

Brian Cronin: Dixon named them after bands - Trogg, Zombie and Bird.

Brian Cronin: And we're never introduced to them during the series

Brian Cronin: It's just a given that we A. know who they are and B. care

Flavio Sette: Yep, that is weird.

Brian Cronin: It's like the opposite of how Jim Shooter wrote Secret Wars.

ExcitedCharacter: I'm pretty sure, that were brought back only in Tom King run, and then in Conquest.

Brian Cronin: We meet Harvey Bullock and Renee Montoya for the first time in this event.

Brian Cronin: Montoya has yet to be made a detective.

Eric Michael: It's a big assumption that people read the Vengeance of Bane one-shot before all this kicked off.

Brian Cronin: It really is, EricMichael, but, come on, throw in some names!

Tom A.: Film Freak once again oddly prominent on the list of escapees for reasons that will be clear later.

Flavio Sette: Bird showed up in Azrael later in the 90s.

Eric Michael: oh, I so agree. "Every issue is someone's first..."

ExcitedCharacter: Oh. I didn't know about this.

Flavio Sette: There were a lot of sub-plots back in the early-mid 90s about Gotham politics, right?Mayor Krol wanted to fire Gordon for some reason, I think.

Tom A.: There's always plots about Gotham politics in Batman. They've gone through dozens of mayors over the decades.

Brian Cronin: Another common trope from Batman books of the era, inspired by Miller in Dark Knight Returns

Brian Cronin: Is psychologists talking about Batman and his criminals

Brian Cronin: The fascinating thing to me, though, is that typically they're used to mock the psychologists

Brian Cronin: Here, though, Moench seems to be playing it straight.

Tom A.: This was before the "Batman is an urban legend" retcon, right?

Brian Cronin: Correct.

Flavio Sette: Yeah.

Brian Cronin: Joe Chill is also still the killer of the Waynes.

Brian Cronin: Moench was much more into psychology than a typical comic book writer and there's an issue leading up to Knightfall where Robin and Alfred debate the psychology of Batman.

Tom A.: Funny how Bane watches TV psychologists in his free time.

Flavio Sette: That issue's really good.

Brian Cronin: That's what I mean, though, Bane seems to take the TV psychologist seriously

Brian Cronin: While other writers typically had the TV psychologists used as something to deride.

Flavio Sette: Chuck Dixon in particular.

Brian Cronin: Well, MIller most famously, of course.

Brian Cronin: As he introduced the trope.

Tom A.: Yeah, it's a shame, psychiatrists and mental health professionals are always needlessly demonized.

Tom A.: in media

Brian Cronin: Agreed.

Tom A.: I'm not sure I really buy Batman's logic of no police backup.

Flavio Sette: Agreed, although I think making fun of pop psychology's ok, seeing as there's a lot of BS surrounding that.

ExcitedCharacter: Yep.

Tom A.: But I guess he's tired.

Eric Michael: We've only just started and already Batman is frazzled.

Brian Cronin: I never quite get why that was needed.

Brian Cronin: I mean, the whole concept of the series is that Bane runs Batman ragged with all of the other villains

Brian Cronin: Before attacking.

Brian Cronin: But we also got MONTHS of Batman being injured in other fights, with super forgettable villains.

Tom A.: Yeah, Bane could probably attack Batman right now and beat him easily.

Flavio Sette: I think it works, seeing as it's pointing to Bruce's tendency to ignore injuries and his need to rest as a larger problem exacerbated by Bane.

Brian Cronin: What's the point of setting up Bane as such a big threat if your whole deal seems ot be "He's getting Batman at a really bad point in Batman's life."

Eric Michael: Agreed.

Eric Michael: Never sat right with me.

ExcitedCharacter: Yeah, He should be in normal condition, and got tired after all of super criminals he beaten up. He has a light beard even. I remembered it having somewhere later.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, exactly.

Brian Cronin: He even PASSED OUT in a then-recent issue leading up this storyline.

Flavio Sette: The message of Knightfall is basically "it's okay to ask for help, you're only human, and if you don't, here's what happens".

Brian Cronin: But that works with just what happens in the event, right?

Flavio Sette: I think the previous stuff helps set that up as a larger problem that isn't caused solely by Bane.

Brian Cronin: Him trying to capture all of the villains already should be something to tire him out

Eric Michael: "Hey, I'm cool--just tell me what you want." Tim Drake in one sentence.

Brian Cronin: Especially if he keeps putting Tim off.

Tom A.: Not sure why any of these criminals accepted Mad Hatter's invitation.

ExcitedCharacter: Yeah, but Batman isn't really a character that asks for help.

Brian Cronin: That seemed to be, "Let's clean up the non-famous escapees"

Flavio Sette: Tim's gelled-up early 90s hairdo is really something.

Brian Cronin: I must say, I appreciate Moench playing nicely with his choice of sacrificial lamb.

Brian Cronin: Film Freak was introduced during Moench's original Batman run.

Brian Cronin: A villain who kills based on movies is not a bad idea for a villain.

Tom A.: They ended up introducing a new Film Freak later.

Flavio Sette: The way Breyfogle melds the panel of Batman and Robin in the Batmobile with the panel of the Mad Hatter's tea party is pretty cool.

Brian Cronin: But Moench rightfully believes that there needed to be a sacrifice to show how bad ass Bane is, and Moench used one of his own characters rather than killing someone else's character.

Brian Cronin: I have a lot of respect for that.

Eric Michael: A lot of other writers would ave used it as a chance to mock other writers

Flavio Sette: About the Adrienne Roy pink-grey skies.

Flavio Sette: I've actually read recently that the reason those pink skies stand out so much is because, when it comes to reprints or digital versions, they're not adjusting for the better paper or the screen. So what looks more subdued and maybe darker in those old pulp pages looks very bright and stands out in modern day paper/a tablet screen.

Brian Cronin: That's probably correct, Flavio

Brian Cronin: But they were ALWAYS meant to stand out

Brian Cronin: But yes, probably not quite THIS much.

Tom A.: Yeah, Moench could heave easily killed off some obscure Silver Age villain like Calendar Man or the Zodiac Master instead.

Brian Cronin: I had a whole bit on the pink/purple skies recently, with Jordan Gorfinkel (one of the editors on Knightfall) telling his thoughts on the topic.

Brian Cronin: It was a bold choice to use Mad Hatter as the first villain.

Tom A.: I wonder how much Alice and Wonderland trivia Batman has had to learn for the sole purpose of dealing with the Mad Hatter.

Brian Cronin: I know they were building their way up.

Brian Cronin: But man, Mad Hatter is so lame.

Brian Cronin: It must be exhausting.

Brian Cronin: Like looking up every person named Hare in Gotham

Brian Cronin: In case they get kidnapped in March.

Tom A.: Or keeping track of every business with the word "two" or "second" in it in case Two-Face robs it.

Eric Michael: You name your daughter in "Alice" in Gotham, Children Services should immediately step in.

Brian Cronin: Hey, Batman, if you want to play off like you're not hurt, don't look so blatantly messed up.

ExcitedCharacter: Maybe Batman just bought everything that has 2 or second in the name so he knows at least that something is up.

Flavio Sette: The sling's one of Robin's more underrated weapons, dating back to the Golden Age when Dick had his own sling. I always love it when it pops up.

Brian Cronin: Breyfogle really drew the action of the sling well.

Brian Cronin: He was such a dynamic artist.

Eric Michael: Absolutely. Loved his style so much.

Tom A.: Bird really did his homework. He could recognize Film Freak wearing a hat and trenchcoat at night from across the street.

Brian Cronin: Good call. It's not like Film Freak is all that distinct looking WITHOUT a disguise on

Brian Cronin: With one it should be near impossible

Flavio Sette: Right in the first real chapter of Knightfall, Moench and Breyfogle take the time to set up Bane's whole deal here.

Brian Cronin: The depiction of Bane pumping himself up with Venom is excellent

Flavio Sette: Probably would've helped to say "I'm injecting venom, a super-steroid right now" to clarify but it works nicely"

Brian Cronin: And really does fill the reader in well. Breyfogle would soon be drawing similarly bulging muscles in Prime.

Flavio Sette: Yeah, the way Breyfogle depicts it in particular's really good.

Tom A.: Tell me about Bane, why are you helping him?

Brian Cronin: The storytelling of Mad Hatter asking who's Bane AS Bane shows up to kill Film Freak? That's outstanding.

Brian Cronin: On both Moench and Breyfogle's part.

Flavio Sette: Yep. The way it "cuts" back and forth.

Brian Cronin: No one draws shocked Batman better than Breyfogle did.

ExcitedCharacter: Yes Artwork by Late Mister Breyfogle is great, Only problem is for me Headbutt, for me it's kinda funny, I don't know, I don''t feel much "punch".

Brian Cronin: It has a sort of Little Orphan Annie vibe to it.

Brian Cronin: Like Batman is constantly about to shout, "Leapin' Lizards!"

Flavio Sette: The whole idea of setting up Robin as having to stand by and watch Batman get attacked was a nice touch.

Brian Cronin: It's fair to say that Bane's headbutt of death is a BIT goofy looking

Tom A.: Man, Batman really is not in top shape if he lets the Mad Hatter just push him like that.

Flavio Sette: It sets the tone right in the first issue. Bruce needs help and he refuses to ask for it.

Flavio Sette: That first panel of Batman beating those guys up is classic Breyfogle.

Tom A.: Though Robin isn't doing much better since he gets jumped on by a chimp.

Eric Michael: Hey, chimps are deadly. No joke.

Flavio Sette: The forced perspective on that panel of Robin's staff telescoping out… so good.

Flavio Sette: We're probably just gonna spend the rest of this chat gushing about Breyfogle's fight scenes.

Brian Cronin: Breyfogle always nailed the staff.

Eric Michael: I always appreciated how Breyfogle had Tim in poses that worked for a bo staff.

Brian Cronin: That's pretty much the majority of the issue.

Brian Cronin: Cool Breyfogle fight scenes.

Tom A.: I think that having the sound effect of Bane throwing Film Freak's corpse at the trash be "trash" is a bit much.

Brian Cronin: I like the sound effect gag in general

Brian Cronin: As they're doing a contrast with the Batman 66 TV series

Brian Cronin: But yeah, probably a bit too on the nose there.

Tom A.: Batman says "two down" even though he just beat up a dozen other Arkham escapees. I guess they don't count because they don't have villain names or gimmicks.

Eric Michael: Note how Bruce &Tim's sound effects were less...brutal than Bane's.

Flavio Sette: I just pictured Bane yelling "Trash!" like he was in the New York Dolls.

Brian Cronin: Exactly, Eric Michael. That part was clever.

Brian Cronin: The "trash" bit was a bit less so.

Brian Cronin: The others didn't make the magic computer screen list at the beginning, so they don't count.

Brian Cronin: They were just normal criminally insane people.

Flavio Sette: Or normal criminally sane people.

Brian Cronin: You can almost imagine how bored Gotham is by just people who, like, shoot up their office place.

Brian Cronin: "Yawn."

Tom A.: Batman's face in the last panel is quite something. "Ugh, Bane".

Flavio Sette: That panel of Batman uppercutting Mad Hatter… so many great panels in this issue.

Tom A.: "I hate mondays"

Brian Cronin: Yeah, Breyfogle was not trying to be subtle at all.

Brian Cronin: While Robin has been grimacing at Batman's distressed looks a LOT

Tom A.: Incidentally, they should probably do something about that chimp, he's still loose.

Brian Cronin: That seriously just seems like Breyfogle got a kick out of drawing the chimp, right?

Flavio Sette: Weird bit of comic relief there with the chimp at the end.

Eric Michael: Well, we needed to be sure he was ok.

Brian Cronin: Surprised Batman didn't adopt him

Brian Cronin: Bat-Chimp

Eric Michael: Damian would've.

Flavio Sette: This issue should've ended with Batman and Robin walking hand-in-hand with the chimp like Jay and Silent Bob at the end of Mallrats.

Eric Michael: LOL

Brian Cronin: Does Mad Hatter's chimp have a name?

Brian Cronin: I imagine him saying, "What, no! That'd be ridiculous!"

Tom A.: The wiki says he's called Carroll Lewis.

Flavio Sette: "Chimps don't have names, hats do!"

Flavio Sette: Which reminds me of all those weird bits with hats from when Mad Hatter popped up in Secret Six.

Brian Cronin: If his name really was Carroll Lewise, the issue should have been titled, "Carroll Lewis Can't Lose."

Brian Cronin: That's the fine Parker Lewis Can't Lose puns that you just can't get at any other comic book site, folks.

Eric Michael: wow Brian...just wow.

Flavio Sette: Sadly, no more chimps for the rest of Knightfall.

Tom A.: Or ever, I don't think Carroll Lewis ever shows up again.

Tom A.: Mad Hatter probably decided he wasn't Alice in Wonderland-themed enough for him.

Brian Cronin: "You fought against Carroll Lewis? But Batman, Carroll Lewis died 20 years ago."

Brian Cronin: Dun dun dunnnnnnnn

Flavio Sette: Ha!

Brian Cronin: Okay, folks, that was a fine kickoff to our Knightfall discussion!

Brian Cronin: We'll get into Detective Comics territory next time with Part two! More Breyfogle goodness!

Flavio Sette: Speaking of Dick Grayson: next issue we meet one of the supporting characters from his time in Blüdhaven, Amygdala.

Tom A.: Was fun, see ya.

Brian Cronin: Thank, for coming, everyone!

Eric Michael: A much better start than I remembered it. Glad we did this.

Flavio Sette: Now that we're vacationing in Gotham, I will probably mention Nightwing at least once per chat.

ExcitedCharacter

Flavio Sette: Here's to 18 more issues!