This is "From a Different Point of View," a feature where I discuss a comic book series with other people. This time around, due to everyone having to self-isolate, I figured I'd do a special edition where I discuss some crossovers with whichever readers that wanted to chat about them! We started off with Marvel's original Secret Wars and now we're doing Knightfall!
We continue with Detective Comics #661, Knightfall Chapter 6, "City on FIre," by Chuck Dixon, Graham Nolan and Scott Hanna, with colors by Adrienne Roy and letters by John Costanza.
Sean Whitmore: Sad to see Breyfogle gone, but I really ended up loving Graham Nolan too.
Brian Cronin: The point where Nolan and Hanna became the official art team on Detective Comics.
Brian Cronin: Nolan had drawn Vengeance of Bane, introducing Bane, with Eduardo Barreto inks.
Brian Cronin: And he had done an arc on Detective with Dixon
Brian Cronin: But Detective had a variety of artists before Nolan got the permanent nod, starting with this issue.
Brian Cronin: What's fascinating about this opening is how general prosaic the Joker and Scarecrow's plot here is.
ExcitedCharacter: Artwork by Nolan is for me very good. But kinda weird, that joker looks more, I don't know solid? Definitely chin is.
Flavio Sette: We open with Joker and Scarecrow having kidnapped the mayor and they're using him to create chaos, which kinda begs the question: does no one know the mayor's missing?
Tom A.: Yeah, this is the kind of plan any villain could have done.
Flavio Sette: You'd think there'd be some kind of security measure, like the mayor's security team have to be in constant contact with someone on the outside or they'd raise the alarm or something. I mean, apparently you can just kill all of the mayor's bodyguards and kidnap him and he's just missing for a long while and no one has any idea there's anything amiss.
Tom A.: It's still night-time, so they think the Mayor is still at his home sleeping.
Brian Cronin: Yeah, the timeline on this whole crossover is incredibly tight.
Brian Cronin: It's chapter six and I think, what, two days have passed?
Tom A.: I'm not sure that the Mayor can just tell the Governor "never mind, don't send the National Guard", it's no longer the Mayor's decision.
Flavio Sette: But that's the thing, does no one check in on his security detail?
Brian Cronin: It's all still within an hour or so of their initial break-in.
Tom A.: Not to mention, you'd think that the Mayor under the effect of the fear gas would sound weird.
Flavio Sette: Especially in this incredibly dangerous city where past mayors have been kidnapped in the past.
Brian Cronin: And yeah, Tom, the whole "Nah, never mind, don't call in the National Guard" isn't very convincing in terms of getting the actual National Guard called off.
Sean Whitmore: “No national guard, the snakes said so!”
Tom A.: I don't think there was any point in making the Mayor call the press to blame Gordon, he was probably already doing that anyway.
Tom A.: Politicians love deflecting blame on people they don't like anyway.
Sean Whitmore: Weirdness of the plot aside, the Joker/Scarecrow team was still a lot of fun.
Flavio Sette: I dunno, I kinda got the feeling it had been a few hours. But anyway, the whole thing feels off for me. It was bugging me the entire time I read the issue. Probably could've been written differently.
Brian Cronin: It IS a fun team-up, still.
Brian Cronin: Just a bit on the old fashioned sort of way.
Brian Cronin: Like something Bill Finger would have written in 1953.
Flavio Sette: It is at that.
Brian Cronin: "Joker and Scarecrow'd Boner War of 1993!"
Brian Cronin: It's also weird that we're six chapters in and we're introducing NEW villains for Batman to fight.
Flavio Sette: Anywho, now we get to see Firefly in his nice new outfit. That IS the first appearance of this particular Firefly costume, right? Did Graham Nolan design it?
Tom A.: Also, convenient that the Joker and Scarecrow orchestrated a firefighters strike in the middle of the night just as Firefly begins his arson campaign.
Sean Whitmore: Proving that comics could indeed be educational, this issue taught me about pyromania.
Brian Cronin: Well, that was the plan, right, Tom?
Brian Cronin: I think Joker knows Firefly is out there causing problems.
Brian Cronin: This is, indeed, the introduction of the new version of Firefly.
Brian Cronin: Where Dixon changed him so much that I don't know why he didn't just give him a new name.
Brian Cronin: As I wonder if this caused problems when getting royalties for the character creation.
Tom A.: They do mention he'd been locked up for a long time even in-universe.
Brian Cronin: As this is effectively an entirely new character.
Tom A.: Good to see Batman finally shaved.
Brian Cronin: I once asked Dixon about it and he basically felt that it was silly that the guy's name is Firefly and his powers had nothing to do with fire.
Flavio Sette: It really could've just as easily been a new guy under the costume.
Flavio Sette: Which, fair.
Flavio Sette: (About his powers having nothing to do with fire)
Tom A.: Does Dixon not understand that real fireflies don't have any fire?
Sean Whitmore: I don’t think I ever even saw pre-Knightfall Firefly.
Flavio Sette: Interestingly enough, Nova the Human Rocket had a villain called Firefly back in the 70s whose costume is a little similar to this Firefly's. Certainly closer to this one than Garfield's old Silver Age outfit.
Tom A.: Fireflies are just bugs that light up.
Brian Cronin: The previous Firefly, Sean, was a special effects guy.
Brian Cronin: So he used lights and stuff to cause illusions.
Sean Whitmore: That’s a heckuva change,
Brian Cronin: He was later featured in one of those giant-sized Batman Annuals.
Brian Cronin: And that's where Dixon had read about him as a kid.
Flavio Sette: Man, look at that "Dance!" Costanza's a hell of a letterer.
Brian Cronin: And so with basically all of Batman's Rogues available, Dixon wanted to revamp him and make him a pyrotechnics expert rather than lighting.
Brian Cronin: Hopefully DC still paid Dixon and Nolan as if they had invented the guy as, well, come on.
Flavio Sette: That bit where Batman has to explain what Firefly's whole deal is to Robin is hilarious. "So why's he still hanging out at the scene of the crime?" Tim, dude, he just said Firefly was a pyromaniac! And then Bruce has to explain to him that pyromaniacs get off on setting fires.
Brian Cronin: Like, do Englehart and Marshall Rogers get paid for Deadshot, I wonder?
Brian Cronin: Or Rogers, at least.
Brian Cronin: Rogers' estate, that is.
Sean Whitmore: I appreciated the explanation, but yeah, it’s weird that Tim would need it.
Flavio Sette: Yeah, you'd think so, right? (Or hope, anyway)
Brian Cronin: It reminds me of John Mulaney's bit about how Ice-T is there to dumb everything down on SVU.
Brian Cronin: "So you're saying this guy's into little girls? Like, with pigtails?"
Sean Whitmore: Same with “haberdashers” a fee issues ago, kinda.
Brian Cronin: Every issue of Knightfall is Batman telling Robin to go home.
Tom A.: Batman mentions Bane, but come to think of it, this is the first issue where neither Bane or his goons show up.
Brian Cronin: I am having Bird withdrawal here!
Sean Whitmore: ”I’ve got this one. Too dangerous.” trips and falls “I’m fine.”
Flavio Sette: At this point, Tim seems more like an intern than a full-fledged crimefighter.
Tom A.: I remember that when I first read this Ventriloquist scene I was confused because the lawyer is wearing the same pajamas as the Mayor, so I thought that the Ventriloquist had also taken the mayor hostage.
Brian Cronin: I had the same reaction, Tom.
Sean Whitmore: Yeah,.definitely a mistake putting the captive lawyer in the same color pajamas as the captive mayor
Brian Cronin: Are pajamas really that popular in Gotham City?
Sean Whitmore: Ventriloquist has never been the most exciting baddie, but he gets some great bits of business throughout this whole story.
Sean Whitmore: The cop puppet is hilarious.
Flavio Sette: Chief O'Hara makes a cameo… kinda? Funnily enough, later on, Loeb and Sale would do a really interesting take on O'Hara (and then kill him off).
Brian Cronin: But yeah, as Sean noted, Batman's constant dismissals of Tim are especially bad when it's like, "You have to go, Tim. You can't handle this." And then Batman almost dies and Tim has to save him.
Brian Cronin: The Chief O'Hara cameo was adorable.
Flavio Sette: Wesker really hams it up with that Irish brogue.
Brian Cronin: Bruce is being SUCH a dick to Alfred.
Tom A.: And Bruce's five o'clock shadow is back.
Flavio Sette: That line "Can't let the boy see how wasted I am" conjures this image in my head of Batman shotgunning a beer.
Sean Whitmore: Bruce’s disappearing/reappearing stubble would later inspire All Star Batman and Robin.
Flavio Sette: So. Tim's a R.E.M. fan, that's pretty cool.
Tom A.: Hey look, they remembered Tim's dad.
Flavio Sette: Maybe Nolan should've drawn a Replacements poster instead. Heh.
Brian Cronin: By the way, a while back I noted that Ariana went from Robin III to the last parts of Knightfall without a mention.
Brian Cronin: But I was wrong, as she gets name-checked a LOT
Brian Cronin: We never see Tim actually introduce himself to her.
Brian Cronin: So my main point still stands.
Brian Cronin: Which is that we go from them being strangers to them being a couple with the middle part all cut out.
Tom A.: It's kind of funny that Robin doesn't even need the Bat-Computer to get all this information on Firefly, he can find it from his 1993 personal PC.
Flavio Sette: Having said that, it's kinda funny that around this time, whenever there'd be a scene set in a teenage boy's bedroom, the artist would usually put in like a Soundgarden or Nine Inch Nails poster or some other band that was really popular with the kids or more underground, and here is Tim with an R.E.M. poster, and at that point R.E.M. hadn't been underground for almost ten years…
Brian Cronin: But I forgot that they MENTION her a lot.
ExcitedCharacter: I just remembered, that Tim's Dad, vas pretty much catatonic during that time.
Brian Cronin: Tim's a mainstream kid.
Sean Whitmore: That was weird to learn, when I read that article. I started with the Robin solo then backtracked to the minis, so I always assumed I just missed something in between.
Brian Cronin: And yeah, his computer skills used to be his bread and butter.
Brian Cronin: They basically still did skip over stuff, Sean, but at least she gets name-checked throughout Knightfall. It makes her cameo in Batman #500 make more sense.
Tom A.: Gotham sure has a lot of huge abandoned buildings.
ExcitedCharacter: For Bruce stubble , well he fought with guy with flame thrower, but Nolan forgot about it. But remembered later, in the shower scene.
Sean Whitmore: The nun scene is weird. Does she come back later in Robin’s solo series or something?
Brian Cronin: I don't think so, Sean.
Flavio Sette: So here we see Tim doing what I mentioned last time, he goes and tells his dad he's sleeping over at Ives' and Ives he's meeting Ariana.
ExcitedCharacter: Gotham rivals Angel Grove for abandoned buildings.
Brian Cronin: I was just about to note that they never explain the nun scene, which is weird.
Flavio Sette: I find Ives interesting as a character because Dixon created him, then pretty much dropped him. Then Jon Lewis brought him back during his (hugely underrated) run with Pete Woods, but then Willingham came in and Ives went back to limbo. Then after Infinite Crisis he gets brought back again (this time by Dixon, I think).
Sean Whitmore: Feels like a reference I just didn’t get.
Brian Cronin: I liked Ives, as well.
Brian Cronin: I liked all the normalcy that was present in early Tim Drake stories.
Brian Cronin: That eventually all went out the window.
Tom A.: Yeah, why cover the nun's face in shadows and have her vanish like that if it doesn't set anything up?
Flavio Sette: Ditto, Brian.
Brian Cronin: Then again, I also liked him having a living dad and then DC was like, "Nope, everyone has to be an orphan!"
Flavio Sette: I think the nun is supposed to be one of the ones who raised Garfield. Why the airs of mystery about it, I dunno.
Brian Cronin: "What do you mean, Robin? That nun's been dead for ten years!"
Flavio Sette: I briefly considered the idea that the nun might be Batman disguised spoon feeding Tim info.
Sean Whitmore: Right? Even Batman saying he’ll ask about it later feels like something was being set up.
Brian Cronin: And now we get heroic Rush Limbaugh destroying the foolish, liberal psychologist.
Tom A.: And just like every Moench issue had a "Mayor yells at Gordon" moment, here we have our obligatory Dixon "psychologists are stupid" moment.
Flavio Sette: I also miss Tim's stepmom Dana.
Tom A.: Why does every Gotham program keep inviting this guy?
ExcitedCharacter: At least it's not like with Marville 3.
Sean Whitmore: I don’t miss Mrs McIlvane, or whatever her name is.
Flavio Sette: Yeah, I was goin to say, one minor character Dixon created that I'd hope to never ever see again is his DCU Rush Limbaugh (ugh), Link Rambeau.
Brian Cronin: Man, isn't it so annoying to see politics inserted into comics like this?
Flavio Sette: Haha!
Tom A.: "A body count rivaling Sarajevo" is quite a statement, there is no way the murders committed by some crazy people in two nights can match a genocide.
Brian Cronin: I'm sure Dixon really has a problem with it here.
Brian Cronin: Keep politics out of comics! Also, make Rush Limbaugh a hero!
Flavio Sette: If he's anything like the real Rush Limbaugh, he's a lying blow hard, so why take anything he says at face value?
Brian Cronin: We get to check in on the GCPD, which is where Dixon really shined back in the day.
Sean Whitmore: The previous scene made me understand Riddler...and Batman’s rogues gallery in general...better than I ever had before.
Brian Cronin: And see Kitch doing his normal Kitch stuff, which is admonishing other cops.
Brian Cronin: Yeah, that Riddler scene was great.
Brian Cronin: It reminds me of the classic Suaron meme.
Brian Cronin: About how he doesn't want to cure cancer
Brian Cronin: "I want to turn people into dinosaurs."
Brian Cronin: Similarly, Riddler just wants to have fun
Sean Whitmore: lol, yeah, exactly
Sean Whitmore: The idea that if they can’t be showoffs and performers, then crime becomes just work, so what’s even the point of it.
Tom A.: Bullock actually has a point, it's not a good idea to read someone their rights while they're scraming and not paying any attention to anything.
ExcitedCharacter: Yep, possibly the best scene in the issue.
Tom A.: Though I guess his general attitude is more "Miranda rights are a stupid invention and we shouldn't bother period"
Flavio Sette: Which kinda makes you wonder why anyone would want to work for the Riddler. He always gets busted, and he specifically gets busted because he sends the cops clues!
Brian Cronin: Excellent question. I guess that's why they eventually give him his own assistants who are also into riddles.
Sean Whitmore: I mean, if Joker still has regular henchmen, anyone can, I guess.
Tom A.: Better than working for the Joker, who'll kill his own men for fun.
ExcitedCharacter: Kinda reminds me a story from Niel Gaiman with Riddler. From Whatever happened to Caped Crusader.
Brian Cronin: What is Sarah Essen wearing?
Brian Cronin: A plaid blazer?
Brian Cronin: Huh?
Brian Cronin: With purple pants?
Flavio Sette: I imagine Joker also resorts to threats, which might be one of the reasons he's had so many henchpeople.
Brian Cronin: Someone once argued that henchmen make more working for the Joker, and then if they live through a job, they quit.
Brian Cronin: It's sort of like Russian roulette.
Brian Cronin: Big rewards, but they know they might die.
Sean Whitmore: Yeah, working for any Gotham villain is probably like gambling...it’s lucrative if you know when to walk away from the table.
Flavio Sette: Yeah, it's a weird outfit, especially given what Mazzuchelli usually had Essen wearing.
Tom A.: Only the Penguin seems like a decent rational enough boss.
Tom A.: Especially since he almost never gets arrested.
Flavio Sette: It's funny how Firefly's backstory and his sister are super important here, but were pretty much ignored from this point on.
Brian Cronin: And the Penguin, in turn, is the one who we see the most henchmen recur.
Brian Cronin: Yeah, good call, Flavio. Along with the ghost nun.
Brian Cronin: If the idea is supposed to be that Batman is struggling taking down the Cavalier, that's not really shown in the art.
Brian Cronin: Someone apparently got their Masters, which is nice. I dunno who "Chris" is.
Brian Cronin: I like Firefly noting that he's obsessed with fire and not Batman.
Brian Cronin: I love that weird little bit of superiority he has about it.
Sean Whitmore: Nolan was great at those shots of Batman holding up his cape like Dracula.
Tom A.: Yeah, Batman is just an obstacle to Batman.
Tom A.: To Firefly
Flavio Sette: "I suffer from pyromania, not Batmania!"
Sean Whitmore: Yeah, I liked that obsession bit too
Brian Cronin: "I masturbate when I see fires, but I'm not a nut like the Joker! Geez, louise, with that guy!"
Brian Cronin: And then we get yet another abrupt ending to a Knightfall chapter.
Brian Cronin: It seems like it's particularly the Dixon issues that have this issue, right?
Flavio Sette: Yeah, kinda.
Brian Cronin: I noted before that it could have been him leaning into the idea that this is one big movie serial.
Brian Cronin: And I could see that being his approach.
Flavio Sette: Yeah, it's possible.
Tom A.: HOW WILL BATMAN ESCAPE FROM THIS BLAZING INFERNO? TUNE IN NEXT WEEK. SAME BAT-TIME, SAME BAT-CHANEL.
Flavio Sette: As I recall tha serial idea had gotten some traction at the time. That was the original concept behind Titans Hunt after all.
Flavio Sette: That it would be a 12-issue Titans serial with a cliffhanger at the end of each issue.
Brian Cronin: Right.
Brian Cronin: They really did hit those cliffhangers hard.
Brian Cronin: Here, though, it seems like we're just cut off in the middle of a story.
Tom A.: Like old school Doctor Who.
Flavio Sette: They definitely could've made the Riddler sub-plot a little shorter to compensate. So many sub-plots this issue.
Sean Whitmore: I feel like Dixon would go on to do a lot of 2-parters that felt like one long story cut arbitrarily into two.
Tom A.: Or just cut out the Rush Limbaugh and the psychologist page that adds nothing.
Brian Cronin: That does sound sort of familiar, Sean.
Flavio Sette: Yeah, the interview's part of the Riddler sub-plot, that's what I meant.
Sean Whitmore: I forgot to bring it up earlier...were we supposed to know the guy Bullock pistol-whipped? He had some kind web design on his face.
Brian Cronin: I didn't recognize him and he wasn't named,
Brian Cronin: But yeah, it did give off the impression like he was a Rogue that Bullock managed to catch,
Brian Cronin: I guess he was just one of the many Arkham inmates that escaped.
Flavio Sette: Next issue: Bane figures out Batman's secret identity! Don't ask me how, because it doesn't make much sense to me.
Sean Whitmore: One of the big Spider-Man fans in the DCU
Brian Cronin: And we get to see how Moench will get Batman out of this and into a Poison Ivy plot!
Brian Cronin: Thanks everyone!