This is "From a Different Point of View," a feature where I discuss a comic book series with another writer. In this case, it is CBR's own Eileen Gonzalez: who will be going over the history of the Avengers with me, story by story!

We continue with Avengers #13, "Trapped...in the Castle of Count Nefaria!" by Don Heck, Stan Lee and Dick Ayers

Eileen Gonzalez: Don't forget Artie Simek!

Brian Cronin: I like that the splash page even makes it seem like a big surprise that the world was turned against the Avengers.

Brian Cronin: It's like, dude, we've seen how the public treats the Avengers AND each other.

Brian Cronin: They will clearly turn on anyone on a DIME.

Eileen Gonzalez: To be fair, up till this point the public has largely seemed apathetic about the Avengers. Even Cap was willing to just walk away from them when they were turned into statues that time.

Brian Cronin: True, they're not like that scoundrel, Spider-Man.

Brian Cronin: Who is both a threat AND a menace.

Brian Cronin: By the way, the credits for this issue are based on the gag of Stan Lee getting extra credit

Brian Cronin: And the others not getting as much credit

Eileen Gonzalez: Oh yeah?

Brian Cronin: That's a weeeeeeeird joke by Stan Lee to make, right?

Brian Cronin: "Rather exceptional story by Stan Lee"

Brian Cronin: "Somewhat distinctive art by Don Heck"

Brian Cronin: "Fairly compelling inking by Dick Ayers"

Brian Cronin: "Moderately clear lettering by Artie Simek"

Brian Cronin: Weird gag.

Eileen Gonzalez: I wonder how many readers at the time noticed that

Brian Cronin: It's a gag, so they probably just thought, "Ha, funny gag!"

Eileen Gonzalez: True!

Brian Cronin: But likely not getting that it's a really weird gag in this context.

Brian Cronin: "Hah, it's funny because I'm getting all of the credit AND I get praised in the credits!"

Brian Cronin: "Funny, right?"

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, I don't guess a lot of people knew what was going on behind the scenes all that much back then.

Brian Cronin: Definitely not at all. Although they were slowly but surely building up the personas of the people involved.

Brian Cronin: Lee was interesting in that he would praise the artists a lot in the letter columns.

Brian Cronin: And heck, he's praised them a ton his whole career.

Brian Cronin: He just, you know, wouldn't give them credit.

Eileen Gonzalez: I know which one I'd rather get if I was an artist.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, exactly.

Brian Cronin: And he clearly wasn't getting why the artists were antsy about it all at the time.

Brian Cronin: Someone noted a particularly dismissive bit Lee did where Wallace Wood scripted an issue of Daredevil.

Brian Cronin: And Lee was all, "Hah, we even let Wally Wood WRITE this issue as a lark!"

Brian Cronin: Even though Wood had fully plotted the previous three issues, all classics.

Eileen Gonzalez: Yikes! Not cool.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, and you could tell that if you asked Lee at the time, he would have no idea why Wood was irked at him.

Eileen Gonzalez: Lee did a lot of great things for Marvel, but it would have been nice if he'd acknowledged more all the great things other people were doing too.

Brian Cronin: And of course, from his perspective, he WAS doing that.

Brian Cronin: By telling people how great they were as artists.

Brian Cronin: I think he just legitimately didn't see them as writers, despite him actively FORCING them to be writers.

Eileen Gonzalez: Your nametag says artist, so you're an artist!

Brian Cronin: And because he didn't see them as writers, he wouldn't credit them as writers

Brian Cronin: Yeah.

Brian Cronin: So I have no doubt that he believed that he was being totally fair to them.

Eileen Gonzalez: Just as strongly as the artists believed he was being unfair, I'm sure.

Brian Cronin: Exactly.

Brian Cronin: Speaking of artists as writers.

Brian Cronin: This story sure seems more like a Heck tale than a Lee tale.

Brian Cronin: As it is SO far off the beaten path.

Eileen Gonzalez: I don't know what you're talking about, this comic is CLEARLY filled with nothing but logic and rationality.

Brian Cronin: You know a comic is great when there is a headline noting, "Avengers Apprehend Fur Bandits"

Brian Cronin: Yes, this week only, the Avengers take on the Mafia!

Brian Cronin: Oh, sorry, the Maggia.

Brian Cronin: Don't want anyone getting shot over that confusion.

Brian Cronin: This is clearly not the Mafia.

Brian Cronin: Not at all.

Eileen Gonzalez: Gotta love the giant skull on the wall behind that one Maggia dude. So classy.

Eileen Gonzalez: I know that being expelled from the Maggia would probably have consequences, but going from that guy's reaction, I was expecting something more along the lines of Nefaria throwing him into a tiger pit.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, I have to wonder if that was just a bit Lee added after.

Brian Cronin: You know, like in Heck's plot, that was just a guy visiting Nefaria to give him news

Brian Cronin: And then Lee added the punishment part.

Brian Cronin: Since it isn't shown in the art.

Eileen Gonzalez: That would make sense. And I guess this was the '60s, so they couldn't have Nefaria be TOO ruthless.

Brian Cronin: Yeah.

Brian Cronin: Nefaria's plan sounds ridiculously complicated, right?

Brian Cronin: Move the castle brick by brick just to lure the Avengers to it?

Eileen Gonzalez: It is a hilarious and awful plan, and I love every minute of it.

Eileen Gonzalez: Almost as much as I love nobody suspecting he's up to no good despite the fact that his name is Nefaria.

Eileen Gonzalez: Maybe Nefaria means "grassy hill" in his native language.

Brian Cronin: Obviously, they're thinking of how George Grey Barnard brought the Cloisters from Europe to New York in the late 1930s

Eileen Gonzalez: A reference all the kids are sure to get.

Eileen Gonzalez: How long did this take Nefaria to accomplish anyway? It must take months to rebuild a castle!

Eileen Gonzalez: Ah, it says "a matter of weeks." They must work fast.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, it took years in the real world.

Brian Cronin: When the Avengers find out, we see Heck doing his go-to "draw Wasp in suggestive poses" bit.

Eileen Gonzalez: Why couldn't he draw Captain America like that, just once?

Brian Cronin: Cap, his hand on his hip, jutting his ass at the other Avengers.

Eileen Gonzalez: He's from the '40s, surely he knows the value of a pin-up.

Eileen Gonzalez: It's for morale, Cap!

Brian Cronin: Cap beefcake posters on the walls of homes around the country!

Eileen Gonzalez: Nothing more patriotic than that!

Brian Cronin: Nefaria's Time Transcender Beams are in-SANE.

Brian Cronin: Dude, why are you running the Maggia?

Brian Cronin: You're on a whole other level.

Eileen Gonzalez: Maybe he likes the dress code. Those cape and gloves are something else.

Brian Cronin: He can create perfect doubles that can do whatever he wants, but sure, let's make sure that the fur robberies aren't interrupted!

Brian Cronin: Declare a superhero war on the US to avoid the Avengers getting involved in some stereos falling off the back of a truck.

Brian Cronin: Makes sense to me!

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, he should probably set his sights higher, but on the other hand, he does get defeated mostly because he failed to pat down the Teen Brigade before throwing them in the dungeons, so maybe he just knows his limits?

Brian Cronin: True.

Brian Cronin: He has an excellent Bond villain speech as he captures the Avengers and created the doubles of them.

Brian Cronin: "I have never believed in harming people physically!"

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, he sure does have some... interesting... justifications for his actions.

Brian Cronin: The fake Avengers sure make a compelling case. Only the powerful shall lead. Like, you know, the Wasp.

Eileen Gonzalez: Or Cap, even, considering how often he gets dinged for being weak in these early issues.

Eileen Gonzalez: His best power is a fancy frisbee.

Brian Cronin: And some powerful beefcake poses.

Eileen Gonzalez: And courage and justice, and whatever else he was telling Rick about that time they were about to fight those guys with guns.

Brian Cronin: "We have courage and justice on our side, Rick, so run ahead of me and absorb their cowardly bullets!"

Brian Cronin: Just once, you'd like to see the people involved show a LITTLE bit of incredulity as to whether these were really the Avengers.

Brian Cronin: "Avengers declared war on us....hmmm...yep, seems legit."

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, they're real gullible for a bunch of folks who think everything is a marketing ploy.

Brian Cronin: Well, perhaps they thought all of the Avengers' heroism up until this point was a marketing ploy!

Brian Cronin: "I would have laid down my life for them yesterday, but today, I'm 100% certain that they're evil."

Eileen Gonzalez: I do love the wanted poster that guy is putting up, though. It's so weirdly complimentary.

Brian Cronin: "Some of the most awesome powers known to man...plus a shield and a stinger"

Eileen Gonzalez: Beware of Avengers: They're Too Amazing

Brian Cronin: Luckily, once again, the Teen Brigade save the day.

Brian Cronin: Some of the most awesome powers known to man...and they need to be bailed out by teenagers every other issue.

Brian Cronin: Wide brim hat guy is gone! Unless...perhaps he just ditched the hat?

Eileen Gonzalez: Wide brim hat guy will always be with us in spirit.

Eileen Gonzalez: Now we get Rick's snazzy sweater vest instead.

Brian Cronin: It's kind of crazy that we're 13 issues in and the Teen Brigade has had about 3 "World-saving" acts so far

Brian Cronin: And yet Rick is still the only one who gets a name.

Brian Cronin: I appreciate the realistic nature of how easily the Maggia thugs knocked them all out.

Brian Cronin: "Uh, Kang, you get you were just dealing with some ordinary teens, right? Maybe get your shit together."

Eileen Gonzalez: Most realistic plot point so far

Eileen Gonzalez: Meanwhile, when the Avengers leave Nefaria's castle, they apparently don't notice that hours have passed since they went in. Shouldn't the sun have gone down or something?

Brian Cronin: Ha! True. I guess they're not exactly deep thinkers.

Brian Cronin: I have to give the Teen Brigade credit.

Brian Cronin: When they said, "What's going on here? How come the Avengers let them get away with it?"

Brian Cronin: And then to other one says

Brian Cronin: "There's only one answer"

Brian Cronin: I half expected, "They must be in league with Nefaria!"

Brian Cronin: Because it is the Silver Age and everyone will turn on everyone else on a DIME.

Brian Cronin: Except the trusting hearts of the Teen Brigade.

Eileen Gonzalez: Why are the Teen Brigadiers the only ones with a brain this issue?

Eileen Gonzalez: Or maybe it's just that they look competent next to everyone else's complete off-the-wall conclusions jumps.

Brian Cronin: Pretty much.

Brian Cronin: How powerful is Iron Man's armor supposed to be at this point?

Brian Cronin: Would two jets really be a threat to him?

Eileen Gonzalez: I mean, he was defeated by rain in Issue Two, so...

Brian Cronin: If so, that's not particularly awesome, power-wise.

Brian Cronin: It's so weird how they assume that they're not American soldiers

Brian Cronin: But then run away because they assume that they're American soldiers

Eileen Gonzalez: Maybe the Comics Code Authority would have gotten upset at the idea of the heroes fighting the US Army? But yeah, weird logic switch there.

Brian Cronin: Luckily, our favorite newspaper, The Daily Exposition, gave Hank and Jan the information they needed.

Eileen Gonzalez: And then the Fantastic Four show up! For one panel, but still!

Brian Cronin: It was impressive how they did at least bother to explain why other superheroes didn't get involved

Brian Cronin: It sounds just like the FF, though, to say, "Sure, random Pentagon agent, we'll do whatever you say."

Brian Cronin: "It's not like our very origin involved us breaking into a government facility and stealing a rocket ship."

Brian Cronin: "But nope, now we're super duper rule followers."

Brian Cronin: As you noted earlier, the Maggia moronically didn't search the Teen Brigade.

Brian Cronin: Nick Spencer later had Rick become a hacker. He used some super power reason to explain it.

Brian Cronin: But honestly, he probably didn't even need to, as Rick was a hacker back before computers were even a thing!

Eileen Gonzalez: I do love the trap Nefaria (belatedly) sticks the Teen Brigade in. It feels like something out of the '60s Batman show.

Brian Cronin: Oh man, that is so INSANE

Brian Cronin: Also, does Nefaria not get that his logic makes no sense?

Brian Cronin: "I put you into a room with blades jutting out anywhere, but if you cut yourself, that's not on me! It's YOUR choice!"

Eileen Gonzalez: I guess he wants to believe it badly enough, so he does.

Brian Cronin: He's a total lunatic.

Brian Cronin: Rick and the guys are total badasses about it, though.

Brian Cronin: Rick explains how Cap tells him that Rick will probably die on every other mission, so Rick is used to it.

Brian Cronin: "He tries to tell me how courage is more powerful than bullets, so I've been ready to die for years now."

Eileen Gonzalez: Rick has to spend hours listening to stories about how Bucky died, probably.

Brian Cronin: "I couldn't live with myself if something happened to you, Rick! But here, come on this mission with me."

Brian Cronin: A fine time for Wasp's Wasp-sense to totally fail her.

Brian Cronin: "What's wrong, Hank? Oh, you want me to fly right towards you? Oh, okay!"

Eileen Gonzalez: Ha, yeah. I just love the little chain reaction of paralysis going there.

Eileen Gonzalez: At least Iron Man is smart enough to not touch them, not that it does him any good.

Brian Cronin: Why would the booby trap work on Iron Man in his armor?

Brian Cronin: The nerve agent paralyzed...his armor?

Eileen Gonzalez: I assume there are holes in the armor for him to breathe, so it leaked in through there? Or he gave the armor a nervous system for some reason.

Brian Cronin: Cap's break-in into Nefaria's lair was handled really well, at least.

Brian Cronin: Heck has done a particularly good job on Cap's action scenes so far in his tenure on the series.

Eileen Gonzalez: I do enjoy a good "Cap beats up everyone at once" scene.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, and there was a good reason for it this time!

Brian Cronin: Unlike Heck's "a bunch of thugs just decided to jump him" bit from two issues ago when he did the same bit.

Brian Cronin: Gotta love, "There's the antidote that he taunted us with! You know, off-panel. Huh, I don't know why I said 'off-panel'"!

Eileen Gonzalez: Cap's a little rude to the Teen Brigade though. "What have you gotten yourselves into?" Like you haven't gotten into your share of trouble too!

Brian Cronin: You were JUST captured!

Brian Cronin: And then framed for declaring war on the US!

Eileen Gonzalez: Heck, he gets captured on the very next page and taken to "Dungeon G." You know you have too many dungeons when you have to letter them.

Brian Cronin: There's no way they keep track of which trap is in which dungeon!

Brian Cronin: NO way.

Brian Cronin: By the way, how did Nefaria defeat Cap?

Brian Cronin: Some sort of blaster, right?

Brian Cronin: You'd think they'd explain what it was.

Eileen Gonzalez: Cap just says it feels like "cold light." Beyond that, it's a mystery.

Brian Cronin: He describes all his other weapons

Eileen Gonzalez: Maybe he was going to monologue about it but Iron Man interrupted.

Brian Cronin: Cap's plan was pretty clever, I'll give them that.

Brian Cronin: To signal the general with his shield.

Brian Cronin: He's lucky, though, that an errant gunshot didn't hit the general.

Brian Cronin: Lots of errant gunshots flying around.

Brian Cronin: it sure would have been nice if there was an actual gun shot on any of those pages, right?

Eileen Gonzalez: Or just a sound effect from a gun shot. Literally anything! The bar is so low.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, how hard would it have been to just support the cliffhanger ending?

Brian Cronin: Instead, it's just completely out of nowhere.

Eileen Gonzalez: I don't think I've even seen a single gun in this issue. Just weird fancy ray guns.

Brian Cronin: They even have the Maggia thugs say that they're GOING for their guns

Brian Cronin: But no actual guns

Brian Cronin: And yet Wasp is somehow still shot by one

Eileen Gonzalez: She's just that lucky.

Brian Cronin: But hey, we have to give them some credit for at least doing something legitimately unexpected.

Brian Cronin: Can you imagine reading this comic in 1964 and Wasp just gets SHOT?

Eileen Gonzalez: That is about the most brutal thing that's happened so far, I think.

Brian Cronin: And this sets us up for an issue that somehow makes this one seem practically mundane in terms of logic and coherence!

Brian Cronin: I'd hate to be the Army guy who has to take down all of those wanted posters.

Eileen Gonzalez: Ha, yeah. Send out the intern for that.

Brian Cronin: Or maybe they figure that the Avengers are bound to seemingly betray them again in the future, maybe just leave them up for a bit?

Eileen Gonzalez: They put them in a drawer somewhere and saved them for later.

Brian Cronin: It's not like the Avengers would ever change their membership, right?

Eileen Gonzalez: Nah, that'd be SILLY.

Brian Cronin: So the posters should be good for some time then.