This is "From a Different Point of View," a feature where I discuss a comic book series with another writer. In this case, it is CBR's own Eileen Gonzalez who will be going over the history of the Avengers with me, story by story!
We continue with Avengers #27, "Four Against the Flood-Tide!" by Don Heck, Stan Lee and Frank Giacoia.
Brian Cronin: Is that a phrase?
Eileen Gonzalez: Is now.
Brian Cronin: "Against the Flood-Tide"?
Eileen Gonzalez: Merriam-Webster says flood tide means "a rising tide" or "an overwhelming quantity" of something, so I guess technically it's correct.
Brian Cronin: True. I guess we'll chalk it up to his sometimes oddly formalized way of writing.
Brian Cronin: Like "aught" and "naught" popping up all of the time.
Eileen Gonzalez: I guess Stan wanted some alliteration.
Brian Cronin: How do you say "Ta Ta Ta Taaa, Ta Ta!" in your head?
Brian Cronin: It's got to be a song of some sort, right?
Brian Cronin: And it's got to be a famous enough song that we should know it by just "Ta Ta Ta Taaa, Ta Ta!"
Brian Cronin: But I'm stumped.
Eileen Gonzalez: I sang it to the same melody Scrappy-Doo used before shouting PUPPY POWER, but I could be wrong on that.
Eileen Gonzalez: I don't know if that little ditty has a real name or anything.
Brian Cronin: Okay, it's possibly Beethoven's 5th Symphony
Eileen Gonzalez: Ooh, classy.
Brian Cronin: Oh wait, now there's an argument that it's "Carmina Burana."
Brian Cronin: I could see that one working. It's a song used in a lot of trailers and slow motion scenes.
Eileen Gonzalez: That's Marvel for you: always expanding its readers' horizons.
Brian Cronin: Or, sadly, the typical comic book reader of 1966 just knew a lot more classical shit than the ones of 2019. (smile)
Brian Cronin: Interesting that the cover hyphenated flood-tide, but the splash page makes it one word.
Brian Cronin: Well, I guess that's a stretch on the word "interesting."
Eileen Gonzalez: They needed that extra hyphen for the subliminal-recall-inducer.
Brian Cronin: It is amazing that a comic book opens with a splash page...
Brian Cronin: of a dude just sitting in a chair
Brian Cronin: ...to subliminally recall...
Brian Cronin: a phone number to call his teammates.
Brian Cronin: A FOUR-DIGIT phone number, mind you!
Eileen Gonzalez: It is a pretty spiffy chair. But yes, you'd think they'd go with something more exciting than this.
Brian Cronin: It's also a sad statement about how dumb Hawkeye is.
Brian Cronin: "Four digits? Who am I, that brilliant millionaire, Tony Stark, who would make a great Avenger if he only had powers or some sort of powerful suit of armor?"
Eileen Gonzalez: And it's just the same two numbers repeating each other! He only had to remember 1 and 3.
Eileen Gonzalez: Heck, we know he watches The Munsters. You'd think he'd at least remember it from the Munsters' address.
Eileen Gonzalez: Also, I'm sorry, but that guy who attacks Hawkeye has the silliest gloves I've ever seen.
Brian Cronin: And he's not even an Avengers villain!
Brian Cronin: That's why I was saying last time that there's no way they had any idea who it was actually going to be when they did the cliffhanger
Brian Cronin: "Mystery villain? Kang? Swordsman? Power Man? Executioner?"
Brian Cronin: "Nope, it's the freakin' BEETLE."
Brian Cronin: Man, Cap and Quicksilver are the only two Avengers without danger sense now.
Brian Cronin: Luckily, the Beetle eventually got a cool costume.
Brian Cronin: This costume is not a bad idea if this was his first design.
Brian Cronin: You know, like him testing out the armor. It LOOKS like a sort of slapdash attempt at making armor.
Brian Cronin: But as the actual FINISHED PRODUCT?
Brian Cronin: What a maroon.
Eileen Gonzalez: Ha, yeah, it definitely looks unfinished. He's got a bucket on his head for crying out loud.
Eileen Gonzalez: Do we ever even find out why he's here? I can't remember the next issue real well.
Brian Cronin: Yes, but I don't really know if Heck had it planned out yet as to why he was here when he drew these pages.
Eileen Gonzalez: Well at least we get some closure.
Eileen Gonzalez: And how convenient is the tech in this issue? The message disappears right after Hawkeye reads it so the Beetle can't snoop!
Brian Cronin: The weirdest thing to me is that Heck had never done a story with the Beetle in it before.
Brian Cronin: So I have NO idea where he got the idea to use the Beetle from. It must have been Stan's idea.
Brian Cronin: I guess he and Heck probably still actually did some general plotting together.
Eileen Gonzalez: Maybe they really wanted to surprise the audience and picked a villain out of a hat.
Brian Cronin: It really feels that way, and that invented a villain for him to be working for later.
Brian Cronin: I did a legend recently about how J.M. DeMatteis introduced a new Jack O'Lantern without knowing who the character was under the mask, so it happens!
Brian Cronin: And Scott Lobdell famously introduced Onslaught without knowing who or what it was
Brian Cronin: Just something strong enough to punch the Juggernaut across a state
Eileen Gonzalez: I guess the creative process is just sorta random sometimes!
Brian Cronin: Especially in the days of one dude "writing", like, eight comic books a month
Brian Cronin: It's interesting to see Hawkeye use the word "line" to describe someone's business, as that was the basis for the hit game show, "What's My Line?" that now feels horribly dated as a title.
Eileen Gonzalez: A lot of the slang is fun but outdated. Does anyone use the term "gasser" as a compliment anymore? Because that's what he calls Stark.
Eileen Gonzalez: Because we love us some Stark.
Brian Cronin: Also, isn't Beetle grammatically INCORRECT when he says "One as Powerful as I"?
Brian Cronin: Shouldn't that be me?
Eileen Gonzalez: I think so! But he wants to make sure he's the most dramatic, so I it is.
Brian Cronin: Ha, true!
Brian Cronin: By the way, I think Hawkeye is over-selling Beetle's gloves a bit.
Brian Cronin: "They're worth a regiment!"
Brian Cronin: Of what, the Salvation Army?
Eileen Gonzalez: He's trying to make himself feel better about how the Beetle is kicking his butt right now.
Brian Cronin: Also, why would a gas capsule work against a guy who is clearly in a sealed suit of armor?
Eileen Gonzalez: What bugs me is the Hawkeye just leaves Beetle there tied up in headquarters. Shouldn't he have put in a call to the cops to come get him?
Eileen Gonzalez: For all we know, when Beetle breaks free, he can just run around the mansion unsupervised doing whatever he wants.
Brian Cronin: "It's all that clown Stark's stuff, so who cares?"
Eileen Gonzalez: Ha!
Brian Cronin: "I doubt Beetle is interested in my Playboy collection."
Brian Cronin: The sight of them fighting Attuma underwater is a trip.
Brian Cronin: They're so sadly pathetic-looking.
Brian Cronin: It's fascinating how many of Heck's fights involve capes.
Brian Cronin: Like, every fight, someone is using a cape or a drape for SOMEthing.
Eileen Gonzalez: Well I mean it's right there! Any smart villain would do the same, I expect.
Eileen Gonzalez: My inner Edna Mode is crying.
Eileen Gonzalez: My favorite part is the two soldiers gossiping about how Attuma is basically cheating because he's accustomed to fighting underwater.
Brian Cronin: That's a great bit of writing by Stan.
Brian Cronin: "Well, this doesn't really prove that you're that powerful, Attuma, since you have a big advantage."
Brian Cronin: "Duuuude, shut uuuuuuuup."
Brian Cronin: I'd love to see the scene where Hawkeye tries to borrow an aero-sub from the Fantastic Four.
Brian Cronin: It's also weird that they wouldn't, you know, HELP HIM.
Eileen Gonzalez: Well they've tried to run to the rescue twice (?) now only to be rebuffed. Maybe they're tired and figured they'd let Hawkeye do all the work.
Brian Cronin: He probably just pissed them off.
Brian Cronin: Like made a pass at Invisible Girl in the ten minutes he was that Baxter Building.
Eileen Gonzalez: Ha! I'd believe it.
Brian Cronin: Or maybe tried to get himself made the leader of the Fantastic Four.
Brian Cronin: "If you make my pants invisible, you'd see how happy I am to see you."
Brian Cronin: Hawkeye's the worst.
Eileen Gonzalez: In fact, when Quicksilver tries to strangle him later because he thinks Hawkeye is the enemy, I'm pretty sure Quicksilver was just faking his confusion. He knew exactly what he was doing.
Brian Cronin: It's interesting to see that Stan went with just swapping the last names of Chet Huntley and David Brinkley for the news reporter character.
Brian Cronin: It's always such a crap shoot as to what real life people they'll use the real names for and which ones they won't
Eileen Gonzalez:Ah, so that is a reference. I suspected, but I wasn't sure. Thanks for the info!
Brian Cronin: They had a show together, the Brinkley/Huntley Report.
Brian Cronin: How in the world does Wanda stop them by WATERLOGGING their machines?!
Brian Cronin: They're an underwater people!!
Eileen Gonzalez: GOOD QUESTION.
Eileen Gonzalez: That bothered me so much. And yet the machinery was in a dry room for some reason? I think? How does this work?!
Eileen Gonzalez: And then Quicksilver does what he always does and gets separated from the others.
Eileen Gonzalez: Kinda wish Hawkeye would stop calling him Whitey though.
Brian Cronin: All Quicksilver does is get separated from the team.
Brian Cronin: I think Heck and Lee were saying something about what they felt about the character.
Eileen Gonzalez: Gotta love how they pause to talk about how great Tony Stark and Reed Richards are.
Eileen Gonzalez: Like we get it. Every other hero is smarter than you.
Brian Cronin: It's decent world building, though, too, by Lee
Brian Cronin: Have other characters talk about how great your OTHER characters are.
Eileen Gonzalez: That's true. Though I wonder, did this happen in reverse? Was there an FF issue where they talked about the virtues of Hawkeye?
Brian Cronin: Ah, but that's a trick question.
Brian Cronin: Since there are no virtues of Hawkeye.
Eileen Gonzalez: Ha! I concede the point.
Brian Cronin: But in all seriousness, yes, to a certain extent the Fantastic Four would hype up other characters. Look what they did for the Hulk!
Eileen Gonzalez: Ah, true!
Brian Cronin: But yeah, this is once again the Marvel Method at its best.
Brian Cronin: Heck has to fill up pages
Brian Cronin: And so he comes up with different ideas of how to do so and this time, it's a Hawkeye/Quicksilver Aero-Sub death race with Attuma's forces
Eileen Gonzalez: Guest starring a giant squid
Brian Cronin: "Sure, why not?"
Brian Cronin: "That killed three pages. Now I can go take my wife out."
Eileen Gonzalez: Attuma really is playing along with the supervillain handbook, isn't he? The second Cap insults him, it's time to monologue and show him super secret areas of the sub!
Brian Cronin: Yep
Eileen Gonzalez: What could go wrong!
Brian Cronin: However, what's up with "I'll think of some way to destroy this machine"?
Brian Cronin: Wanda's standing right there!
Brian Cronin: "Oh, uh, Wanda's hex can't work when her hands are bound! Yeah, that's the ticket!"
Brian Cronin: "No one knows how her powers work, so give us a break!"
Eileen Gonzalez: Ah, but Wanda has to save up her strength to pretend to faint later while Cap does all the work. It's a good plan.
Brian Cronin: While, on the other hand, Lee has to back up one of Heck's less-good plans
Brian Cronin: Once more, Stan's dialogue has to explain Heck's plot
Brian Cronin: "Won't this flood the place and kill Cap and Wanda?"
Brian Cronin: "I...didn't think of that until after we smashed the glass."
Brian Cronin: "Oh, don't worry, there's a back-up glass for some reason!"
Eileen Gonzalez: Who is less smart: Quicksilver or Hawkeye?
Eileen Gonzalez: The world may never know.
Eileen Gonzalez: They finally get their act together when it comes to the down-and-dirty fight scene, though.
Brian Cronin: I like the little meta-fictional nod there
Brian Cronin: When Quicksilver mentioned "those who think the new Avengers lack in power"
Brian Cronin: That's undoubtedly what some fans were writing in to say."
Eileen Gonzalez: Oh, I'm sure. The new team has been around, for, what 11 issues at this point? But I'm sure there were still some grumpy fans complaining about the change.
Eileen Gonzalez: Wonder how they felt about Wasp coming back?
Brian Cronin: "NOW there's power again in the Avengers!"
Brian Cronin: I adore Cap's complicated plan to escape when Wanda just uses her hex to then free his bonds.
Brian Cronin: What the what?!
Brian Cronin: NO ONE KNOWS HOW HER POWERS WORK!
Eileen Gonzalez: Honestly, if they'd just let Wanda handle things, no one would be complaining about the Avengers being underpowered because all their problems would be over in two pages.
Brian Cronin: True.
Brian Cronin: But I'm sure the young male fans of 1966 would be SUPER on board with a super-powerful female member, right?
Brian Cronin: Chris Claremont and Dave Cockrum weren't allowed to have Phoenix fight Thor or Silver Surfer, because it would diminish them to have them be matched evenly by a woman.
Eileen Gonzalez: SIGH.
Brian Cronin: And that's still a decade AFTER this.
Brian Cronin: Claremont cleverly picked Firelord, then, who had previously matched up evenly with Thor.
Eileen Gonzalez: Women never get to have any fun.
Eileen Gonzalez: Unless Wanda found pretending to faint "fun."
Eileen Gonzalez: And then as they escape, there's that weird bit where Stan bashes his own writing.
Eileen Gonzalez: It's not like it's a horrible line, even. A bit obvious, I guess, but it's not actually bad.
Brian Cronin: Yeah, it's weird to knock THAT line
Brian Cronin: When Attuma went over most of the generic supervillain dialogue earlier in the issue
Brian Cronin: Also, why in the world would Cap just not tell the others he set Attuma's machine to explode?
Brian Cronin: "Cap, shouldn't we stop his flood machines?"
Brian Cronin: "The human race is resilient, Wanda."
Brian Cronin: "Uhm...okay, but shouldn't we stop his flood machines?"
Brian Cronin: "Threats are not the same as deeds."
Brian Cronin: Cap's like freaking Ozymandias in these scenes.
Brian Cronin: Until it turns out that he had sabotaged the machine the whole time!
Eileen Gonzalez: That's what teamwork is all about, right? Not telling your team anything until the last second?
Brian Cronin: Yet another clifhanger that I'm unsure if they actually had worked out what it was that they are hinting at.
Brian Cronin: I do love that they came out there to rescue the Wasp and left without rescuing the Wasp, and apparently didn't seem too broken up about it.
Brian Cronin: "I didn't see the woman who can shrink to the size of a wasp, so I'm sure she wasn't there, so she must be fine."
Eileen Gonzalez: Even better, the Wasp was out on the ocean in the first place to warn them about Namor, but she never did that and Namor never showed up again.
Brian Cronin: That's the downside of doing shared continuity just to promote another title.
Brian Cronin: "Oh, right, we sort of set that up as a big deal and it was only resolved in another title. Oh well."
Eileen Gonzalez: People just have to buy more comics now!
Brian Cronin: It's almost like this was some sort of advertising stunt...
Eileen Gonzalez: GASP
Eileen Gonzalez: The suspicious civilians were right all along!
Brian Cronin: Ta ta ta TAAAAAAAAAAA!
Okay, folks, feel free to write in if you have stuff you'd like to see us discuss in future Avengers issues (or questions about the stories)! You send your questions, requests and/or comments to me at brianc@cbr.com!