This is "From a Different Point of View," a feature where I discuss a comic book series with another writer. In this case, it is CBR's own Eileen Gonzalez who will be going over the history of the Avengers with me, story by story!

We continue with Avengers #23 "Once an Avenger..." by Don Heck, Stan Lee and John Romita.

Brian Cronin: A couple of things strike me right off the bat on the first page.

Brian Cronin: First, this is the first time we've seen Heck and Romita paired together on the book.

Brian Cronin: Romita was one of the top romance comic artists of the 1950s for DC and then he came over to Marvel and he slowly but surely "sexified" Marvel in the mid-to-late 1960s

Brian Cronin: Right around the same time that Heck, in turn, started doing a lot of romance comics himself.

Brian Cronin: So we have a double-romance comic book pairing here, and I think it is noticeable right away in the depiction of Scarlet Witch.

Brian Cronin: Second, I just love the caption, "And now that he is gone, the squabbling begins..."

Brian Cronin: Oh, NOW it begins?!

Eileen Gonzalez: Lol, the rest was just warm-up.

Eileen Gonzalez: And yeah, the women in this comic always looked a little cheesecake-y once Heck came on, but she absolutely looks like a romance comic character now, especially while she's crying over Cap.

Eileen Gonzalez: That panel looks directly lifted from a romance comic.

Brian Cronin: The giant tears!

Brian Cronin: Yeah.

Eileen Gonzalez: I also like how Cap gets a job as a boxing trainer. He couldn't just keep being Captain America on his own because...?

Brian Cronin: He was recently complaining about mooching off of Tony Stark, so I guess now that he's no longer an Avenger, he doesn't feel right living off of Stark's good graces.

Brian Cronin: And that would be kind of awkward, anyways, right?

Brian Cronin: "I'm leaving the team. Goodbye...forever!"

Brian Cronin: "Oh, and I guess I'll see you at the mansion we all share."

Eileen Gonzalez: Ha, yeah. Though now that he's in upstate New York, maybe he can hang out with the X-Men for a while.

Brian Cronin: Ha! That's funny because Westchester is really lower New York, but it really DOES get considered "upstate" because everything above NYC is essentially considered upstate by people!

Eileen Gonzalez: Ha, whoops. I just seem to remember all those X-Men comics referring to the mansion as being in "upstate New York." Or maybe in the Marvel universe Westchester really IS upstate somewhere.

Brian Cronin: Ha! That's a good point.

Brian Cronin: Just like how the DC Atlas is all messed up

Brian Cronin: Because they need to fit in all of those fictional cities in there.

Brian Cronin: Or Eastern Europe in the Marvel Universe.

Brian Cronin: This issue is another interesting case about how the Marvel Method affects the layout of a book. Everything's so...not sloppy, but the edges on the plots are definitely rough.

Brian Cronin: It's like they had two plots that they sort of smooshed into one comic book. It doesn't flow naturally, exactly.

Brian Cronin: Luckily, it's a good overall plot, so it works. I think this two-parter is one of the strongest bits from the whole Lee/Heck run (which is about to run out).

Eileen Gonzalez: It did feel weird to have Kang pop out of nowhere in the middle of the Avengers' identity crisis, but you're right that the plot is pretty solid. And the Avengers have always been weird anyway, so it doesn't stick out so much.

Eileen Gonzalez: Like, of COURSE a futuristic dictator shows up for revenge. That checks out.

Brian Cronin: By the way, how amazing is the scene where Cap thinks back about the Avengers and how he will miss them.

Brian Cronin: "Wanda, Hawkeye and the others."

Brian Cronin: Holy shit, Cap, you just "and the others" ONE DUDE!

Brian Cronin: Quicksilver is truly the most disrespected superhero around, right?

Eileen Gonzalez: Oh man, I missed that. That's really terrible.

Eileen Gonzalez: Especially since Quicksilver was almost halfway rational some of the time!

Brian Cronin: Yeah, the others are so crazed that he has become the de facto calm one of the group. It's pretty hilarious.

Brian Cronin: Maybe that's why Cap forgot about him. The squeaky wheel gets Cap's attention.

Brian Cronin: Plus, of course, all of his unresolved sexual tension with Hawkeye and Scarlet Witch.

Brian Cronin: Poor Quicksilver, the only one no one wants to have sex with.

Brian Cronin: I like that the US military also runs on the "this must be a publicity stunt" train of thought with Kang's ship.

Brian Cronin: "A huge flat slab of stone? Let's not report this, because it must be fake! Why? Because we're stupid!"

Eileen Gonzalez: It's funny how the Avengers sans Cap actually work together fairly well here. Even when Quicksilver saves Hawkeye, Hawkeye doesn't get all macho and angry about it. He just thanks him.

Eileen Gonzalez: I mean, they still lose in embarrassing fashion, but they acted like a team for once.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, maybe Cap WAS the problem all along!

Brian Cronin: "Zisssst" is a heck of a sound effect.

Eileen Gonzalez: Almost as good as "thikk"

Brian Cronin: Note Quicksilver not putting up with Hawkeye daring to make a joke about Quicksilver's icon, Tony Stark.

Eileen Gonzalez: Ah, so that's why Quicksilver hasn't been getting in on the sexual tension, he's holding out for Stark.

Eileen Gonzalez: Also, why is Wanda complaining about the locked door? Can't she hex it open?

Brian Cronin: No one knows how her powers work.

Brian Cronin: No one.

Brian Cronin: But to no-prize it, perhaps the lack of oxygen kept her from being able to concentrate enough to use her hex power?

Brian Cronin: That sounds reasonable, right?

Eileen Gonzalez: Works for me!

Brian Cronin: I do like that they're all, "I wish Cap was here - he would have gotten us out of a locked room...for reasons."

Brian Cronin: What's Cap going to do there?

Brian Cronin: Throw his shield at the door?

Brian Cronin: What's that going to do?

Eileen Gonzalez: Maybe he has all the keys to Avengers Mansion and could have unlocked it.

Eileen Gonzalez: On a different note, I like Ravonna's outfit. The far future is very stylish.

Brian Cronin: This is RIGHT up Heck's alley.

Brian Cronin: It's basically a romance comic at heart.

Brian Cronin: Also, I wish Ravonna's objection to Kang was something like "He's an evil conqueror!"

Brian Cronin: And not, you know, "He's a commoner!"

Eileen Gonzalez: I know! That was such a weird line.

Eileen Gonzalez: Like, it'd be fine if he was a conqueror of noble birth, but a commoner? No thanks!

Brian Cronin: They nicely explained how Cap knew the Avengers were in trouble (Heck seems like he was spending a lot of time making sure plots made sense in his issues)...

Brian Cronin: I like the caption with Scarlet Witch when they're captured.

Brian Cronin: "Whom many think is the least powerful Avenger..."

Brian Cronin: Who thinks that?

Brian Cronin: The one dude just shoots arrows!

Eileen Gonzalez: Hawkeye wrote that trying to make himself feel better.

Eileen Gonzalez: And then they introduce this new quirk to her powers: how she can only hex something once and then needs a recharge. Okay then.

Brian Cronin: Again, no one understands her powers

Brian Cronin: But seriously, I think this is Stan thinking, "We should probably have a limit on her powers, right?"

Brian Cronin: As that "depleted source of hex energy" doesn't seem to be coming from the art.

Brian Cronin: Just Lee's text.

Eileen Gonzalez: Hm, good point. She's definitely have trouble with that lever, but that could just be because it's stuck, not because she drained her power. And then by the next page she seems fine.

Brian Cronin: Some really great Heck action scenes here with the team swinging on the rope.

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, the whole sequence of them trying to escape Kang's traps is really nicely done.

Eileen Gonzalez: And then Cap just... shows up somehow.

Brian Cronin: They continue to figure stuff out without Cap, though, which is impressive.

Brian Cronin: Remember when Hawkeye needed Cap to tell him to shoot a rope arrow while they're falling?

Brian Cronin: And now they're figuring stuff out for themselves, even when they get captured!

Eileen Gonzalez: It's kind of sad that they actually do work better as a team without Captain America. Sad and weird.

Eileen Gonzalez: And I do like Kang's attitude throughout. He is so full of himself that he sees every setback as just a delay in his grand victory. He's incapable of admitting that things aren't going to plan.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, they handle him well.

Brian Cronin: The Cap stuff, really, is pretty badass.

Brian Cronin: He knows Kang is constantly monitoring them like a perv.

Brian Cronin: (I assume it gives Cap some extra motivation when he is alone in his room at night, saluting himself)

Brian Cronin: So he challenges him. It's a really strong scene.

Brian Cronin: However, is the recreater really a thing? I don't remember it. You?

Eileen Gonzalez: I was going to ask you about that, lol. I remember in one of the Avengers Annual issues, there was something similar. It was like a chair that allowed you to go back and look at historical events or something. But I don't remember that doohickey Cap has now

Eileen Gonzalez: Also, how many villains have planted cameras at Avengers Mansion by now? There's Kang, Mole Man...

Brian Cronin: And Mandarin can show up at any moment in your room with a hologram.

Brian Cronin: Okay, did some quick research and Lee and Heck were just misremembering

Brian Cronin: The recreater was introduced and used by Mister Hyde a year and a half earlier in an issue of Journey Into Mystery (#105).

Eileen Gonzalez: Thanks for the info! I feel better now.

Brian Cronin: But I guess I can buy that the Avengers took it into custody

Brian Cronin: And then I guess used it off-panel at some point.

Brian Cronin: What's interesting is that issue of Journey Into Mystery DID feature the Avengers. It was actually a nice little bit of added insight into the group dynamics.

Brian Cronin: It shows a meeting where nothing was going on and Thor notes that Giant-Man is lucky to be able to have his girlfriend with him all of the time and Wasp asks if Thor has a girlfriend and Giant-Man freaks out, noting that it is against their rules to pry into each other's private lives.

Brian Cronin: They can argue with each other incessantly, but they would never dare pry into each other's private life!

Eileen Gonzalez: This won't come into play for a while yet, but that rule about not prying into each other's real lives will become a serious problem by the early '80s. Like, even when their teammates are obviously struggling with something serious, everyone turns a blind eye because, NOPE, that's private, let's just ignore it.

Eileen Gonzalez: Although in that instance, maybe Hank was just jealous because he thought Jan was showing romantic interest in Thor.

Eileen Gonzalez: I'm still laughing at that panel of Cap just bouncing through time.

Brian Cronin: WRITE YOUR OWN DAMN CAPTION!

Brian Cronin: I AM WRITING TOO MANY GODDAMN COMIC BOOKS RIGHT NOW!

Brian Cronin: I NEED SOMEONE ELSE TO HELP WRITE COMICS, DAMMIT!

Brian Cronin: The Kang/Ravonna flirtation is pretty clever stuff.

Brian Cronin: Like, she's all "Screw you" and yet there's definitely some romantic interest mixed in there.

Brian Cronin: It's all kinds of messed up.

Eileen Gonzalez: I didn't interpret Ravonna as flirting here, at least not sincerely. I figured she was just trying to scam Kang into defeat so she could be rid of him. Either way, I've always kinda liked her.

Brian Cronin: I think I'm letting the later stuff influence my reading

Brian Cronin: So you're probably right that I'm reading emotion into her actions that is not there (yet).

Eileen Gonzalez: Well, the nice thing about reading is that people take different things from it. Wouldn't be much point in discussing these things if we agreed 100% on everything.

Brian Cronin: Oh definitely, but I think you have the "correct" reading here, as I'm only reading into it based on Ravonna's LATER interest in Kang.

Brian Cronin: I think you're probably correct that at this point, she's just "screw that guy."

Brian Cronin: Quicksilver's reaction to seeing Cap is both adorable and really well drawn by Heck and Romita.

Brian Cronin: He's so happy!

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, Quicksilver finally has Cap back!

Eileen Gonzalez: Time for reunion hugs

Eileen Gonzalez: I assume Cap and Quicksilver are taking that dude down for crimes against fashion. How many colors and patterns was he trying to squeeze into that one outfit?

Brian Cronin: Yeah, Heck does not acquit himself very well on the design elements in this issue.

Brian Cronin: This issue, I think, doesn't come up as much as it should, by the way, in terms of Cap's shield.

Brian Cronin: Kang totally messes with it in a way that our later understanding of Cap's shield would suggest would be impossible.

Eileen Gonzalez: I was just sitting here yelling MOLECULES DON'T WORK LIKE THAT, but if there's something more specific than that going wrong here, please do tell!

Brian Cronin: No, just that Cap's shield is essentially a special deal where you really CAN'T mess its molecules like that

Brian Cronin: Unless you're, like, the Molecule Man or have the Infinity Gauntlet or whatever

Brian Cronin: Stan then drops one of the most obscure references ever, to Omar freakin' Khayyam!

Eileen Gonzalez: He's educating the children!

Brian Cronin: I guess so. Dang, dude!

Brian Cronin: Khayyam's work (from a thousand years ago) has often been considered fatalistic and nihilist, so I guess Stan is comparing Kang's beliefs to that? Fascinating pull, Stan!

Eileen Gonzalez: That means Kang has read Omar Khayyam, which I guess survived into the far future? Or he just picked up a copy on his travels.

Eileen Gonzalez: And then Ravonna tells off Kang like a badass.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, she comes off very well in these scenes.

Brian Cronin: Honestly, the whole monarchy discussion is fascinating as well as complex, right?

Brian Cronin: What IS the role of a princess here?

Brian Cronin: Just to marry the guy to spare her subjects?

Brian Cronin: I guess so, right?

Eileen Gonzalez: That's definitely what her dad is implying there. That doesn't seem like it will turn out real well, since Kang the CONQUEROR will likely make a mess of the kingdom anyway.

Brian Cronin: Yeah.

Brian Cronin: Boy, the Avengers sure come off as badasses at the end of the issue, right?

Brian Cronin: This is why this two-parter stands out so much, as we have kept hearing how cool this new team is

Brian Cronin: Even though they've been fairly inept and constantly bickering

Brian Cronin: But now we REALLY get to see them prove their mettle and it's awesome.

Brian Cronin: That last panel? With Kang calling their bluff and the mighty army invading the city with just four Avengers to defend it? That's amazing.

Brian Cronin: Or WILL it just be four Avengers defending it? That's the big twist in the next issue, of course (which is a very romance comic story type twist).

Eileen Gonzalez: I do love this last bit! The Avengers all arriving to defend the kingdom, the epic war on the horizon... this really is a great storyline.

Eileen Gonzalez: Can't wait to see it all resolve next issue!

Okay, folks, feel free to write in if you have stuff you'd like to see us discuss in future Avengers issues (or questions about the stories)! You send your questions, requests and/or comments to me at brianc@cbr.com!