The 16-part, weekly “No Surrender” storyline, which ran through issues #675-690 of Marvel Comics' Avengers, was an epic tale that perfectly captured the fun and heroics that have made the titular team comic book cinematic icons. That came as no surprise to longtime fans, though, and when it was revealed that every script had been finished way before the first issue was published, readers could rest assured that the storyline wouldn't suffer from last minute changes or adjustments. Then, upon reading the actual storyline, fans realized that this was a story the creative team had a blast writing and illustrating, fun that translated to the reading experience.
Now that tale of how the casts of the three previous Avengers titles (Waid's Avengers, Zub's Uncanny Avengers, and Ewing's U.S.Avengers) came together to defend a stolen Earth from the villainous machinations of cosmic beings has wrapped, the writers and their editor, Tom Brevoort, join CBR for a look back at bringing the event story to life. More than looking back, we also peer into the future of some of the story's major players like the Grandmaster, and the writers' next Marvel projects: Champions, Ant-Man & the Wasp and Doctor Strange
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When I first heard about how quickly you guys were writing the issues of "No Surrender," it seemed like this was more than just an assignment for the three of you. And in reading the story, it was clear that was because you were all having fun writing it. What was it like coming together for the first time to work on the tale? And at what point did things just click for you? Tom, when did you first notice that this was a story that was really clicking for your writers?
Mark Waid: My memory is that it was never not fun and not clicking. I’m sure that we probably ventured down one or two dead-end roads in development, but that would have been during the earliest hours.
Al Ewing: I think things really started to click during the first issue -- we just seemed to be getting into sync in a way that was working. I know in my head it became this super-important project, partly that was because I felt a lot of pressure not to let the rest of the team down on the writing end, to really hold my end up, and partly... there's something about the Avengers, especially in the cosmic realm and playing with characters you don't normally get to play with, that just gets the ideas flowing. And that part was there right from the start, from the first writers room and even on the email chains before that - it was great to throw ideas into this big bubbling Avengers soup and make cool stuff out of them, all the way through.
Jim Zub: Now that it’s all done, I can admit the almost paralyzing fear I had before we all got together at the Marvel Offices. The night before we met I’d just flown in and both Mark and Al were already in New York for the Marvel Writer’s Summit. I was feeling some serious Imposter Syndrome. These were seasoned pirate captains and I was a wide-eyed cabin boy without his sea legs who somehow stowed away on the S.S. Avengers without anyone noticing.
Then, once we got into the room, I finally realized I could contribute and that this was going to be a ton of fun. We built momentum and the ideas started ricocheting off each other in wonderfully unexpected ways. That day, being there face to face and getting instant feedback on what was working and what wasn’t, that was so important.
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Al and Mark were slammed with other projects, while at that point Uncanny Avengers was my only Marvel monthly, so I stepped in to start breaking down scenes/page counts for the first few issues. I expected people to get precious about how many pages they were given, or disagree with pacing choices, and was bracing myself for a tedious process as we parsed it all out -- but it never happened. I sent the first issue breakdown to the group, Tom tweaked it a bit, and everyone just went to work. We all knew what we needed to do, and that if we didn’t get those scripts in on time it could cascade into a schedule nightmare down the line, so we all just dug in. For me, that was when it clicked. No more time for doubts.
Tom Brevoort: I was extremely fortunate in that, by sheer luck of the draw, I wound up with a writing team that worked comfortably together, and whose strengths and aptitudes balanced one another out well. You really can’t plan for that kind of alchemy happening. But this crew was in lockstep from the moment we all sat down together to break down the story and chart out the 16 issues.
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It's interesting that an Avengers story, which is about individual heroes coming together to face larger threats, was tackled by three writers who came together to tell one massive tale. Were you conscious of that at all when you were writing “No Surrender?” What was the collaborative experience like for you all? And Tom what was it like working with these guys while they were writing the story?
Waid: I suppose that if you look at a script as a threat that needs to be conquered for the good of mankind, we’re all guilty of that as a deadline barrels towards us. For the most part, the camaraderie was e-camaraderie, but we were always aware of how we needed to pull together, and we were probably better at it than the Avengers themselves sometimes in that at no point did any squabbles break out, nor did we have a Civil War.
Ewing: The collaboration on this was top-notch every step of the way. I always felt like the others were open and receptive, and when we did disagree, it was always settled very quickly with a vote or a quick email discussion. Everyone did their bit and we all got some great moments out of it. And when you consider that we were all three of us in different countries on different time zones, it all went insanely smoothly.
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Zub: Once those scenes came in and we Frankensteined the combined version of each script together, it was usually pretty obvious where transitions weren’t working or if dialogue was over or under-explaining information we needed to impart. Most of it was handled over email, with extensive version numbering of scripts and spreadsheets to track character and plot progression. There was also some good-natured ribbing thrown in to break things up and remind us all that this ride was a fun one.
Brevoort: Once things got rolling, I tended to be more of a speed bump than a help. These guys knew the schedule, and they would take it upon themselves to pull together the breakdown of the issue and then divide up the work, each one starting on their individual sections often before I even had a chance to respond. Everybody was motivated.
From our previous talks, I know each of you wrote elements of each issue, but I also know that when it came to certain character threads and arcs, one of you often did the primary lifting. What were some of your favorite things/moments that your co-writers worked on?
Waid: Writing and choreographing fight scenes is torture for me, and Jim really made it look easy. Whenever groups of Avengers took on mobs of Black Order or Lethal Legionnaires, Jim brought the thunder. And my favorite moment from Al was easily the conversation between Jarvis and Banner.
Ewing: I guess in terms of emotional heft, it's hard to top that moment from Jim where Quicksilver went on his run to destiny. That was some gorgeous writing. But the bit that made me smile early on was when the two teams of baddies were squaring up against one another - it was a really great, fun introduction to our evil henchmen, that gave each of them a little moment to shine.
As for Mark - he wrote pretty much the entirety of issue #9, which is a wonderful romp through Jarvis' brain in the middle of a hospital full of mad ghosts, and it's just a beautiful two-hand adventure in the middle of everything, all perfectly paced and delivered. It reached a crescendo in this amazing theatre of memories - like the northern lights - that kind of worked as a turning point for the whole story, the hub it all revolved around, both thematically and plot-wise. So it's got to be that.
Zub: Al wrote the majority of Challenger’s origin, and he humanized the character in ways I hadn’t originally expected. He played up on the idea that Grandmaster and Challenger were like brothers and deepened that betrayal more than our original outline suggested, which would eventually play into a more sympathetic ending for the entire story with Voyager wanting to redeem Challenger instead of just imprisoning him.
In the same way, Mark fleshed out Voyager’s origin, taking her from a plot device to a much more nuanced heroic figure. Yes, she manipulated the memories of her fellow Avengers, but even those rewritten memories carried the promise of who she would become late in the story.
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Let's talk about your artistic collaborators: Pepe Larraz, Paco Medina, Kim Jacinto, Mike Perkins, Sean Izaakse and Stefano Caselli. What were some of the scenes you wrote that you feel your artists helped bring to life in ways that added to the scene and made it better than you originally envisioned? Tom, I understand the original artists stepped up in a big way and you had some assists as well from artists who helped out when needed. Is that correct?
Waid: I’m hesitant to call out specific scenes, only because every artist, every one of them, did amazing work and I don’t want to look like I’m favoring certain ones over certain others -- but holy cow did Pepe make that final fight scene in Chapter 15 sing. The biggest scene in the entire story, and he made it work beautifully.
Ewing: Once Paco Medina got a handle on the Hulk - which he did very quickly – he and Juan Vlasco were absolutely perfect at getting that sense of a very physical, dense, brutal menace. I really felt those punches in the fight/debate with Wonder Man, and there was a real sense of threat wafting off him at all times. Similarly, watching Pepe Larraz draw Lightning - from the first issue to the last - just made me want to see him draw that guy all the time. Kim Jacinto did some great work on the flashback to the Challenger's past - making him seem cuddly and getting across the wrenching horror of his original fate. Mike Perkins gave us a wonderfully creepy Mentacle. And Sean Izaakse gave us a fantastic Red Wolf, getting every step of his thinking process across perfectly.
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Zub: Kim’s moody line work made Challenger’s reveal extra-special, an intimidating figure who instantly looked like he could go toe-to-toe with any Elder of the Universe.
Pepe effortlessly delivered on the crazy fight scene I choreographed to introduce the Black Order and Lethal Legion in part 2. He brought some of the biggest battle scenes to life with dynamic vigor.
Brevoort: The worst mishap was Kim Jacinto getting seriously sick in the middle of our production window, right at the time his wife was giving birth to their first child. So that was the one unexpected hurtle we had to clear that wasn’t in the original plan. Mike Perkins and Sean Izaakse stepped up beautifully to help us get it done, and then later in the run, Stefano Caselli did the same. We couldn’t have delivered without their help.
Now that No Surrender is wrapped, it feels like its ultimate villain, The Grandmaster, who was sort of a classic Avengers villain, is in place to be a major antagonist in the Marvel Universe moving forward. What was sort of your guy's mission statement when you began this story with the Grandmaster? What were some of the ways in which you wanted to move the character forward?
Zub: The Grandmaster’s legacy as the greatest game player has been upturned with this story. We don’t specify how many times Voyager was his “ace in the hole,” but it’s clear he hasn’t been playing fair for some time. He’s betrayed his core obsession and yet can’t stop with those machinations. Hooking him up with the Black Order at the end is one of those little teases about where we could take things from there if the stars align.
Ewing: In terms of the mission statement when we began this – there was a pinch of movie synergy, I think, in that Jeff Goldblum was about to bring his gorgeous Grandmaster to the silver screen, but at the same time we really needed a classic Avengers villain. And over the course of this, Grandmaster really got villainous – I guess we all expected Challenger to be the big threat, and he was in terms of his power and his anger issues, but I think the sheer amoral sociopathy of Grandmaster, as it oozed out during the writing process, kind of surprised us all. He’s really shown his true colors in this one – and now that he’s lost a game, even if it was through disqualification, he’s only going to be more dangerous. Putting him together with the Black Order at the end was an inspired choice from Jim – a truly evil foe needs truly evil henchpeople.
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In No Surrender you guys tied up and brought to a head character arcs from your respective Avengers titles, but you also introduced some new characters into the Marvel Universe in the form of Voyager and the new Lethal Legion. Issue #690 left those characters in some interesting places. Any teases about where and when we might see those characters again?
Zub: It’s hard to say. Jason Aaron's new Avengers run is built on the Celestial plotline he started in Marvel Legacy, but his team line-up also leaves many of our No Surrender players open for other adventures. What form that may take is not something we can talk about just yet. Like Lightning, our cards are staying hidden for now.
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Ewing: I’ve got ideas. Part of the business of #690 was to leave the characters in places where they were free and clear – so both Toni and Roberto ended up in quite a nebulous space where anything could happen next. Of course, the trouble with that approach is that immediately your mind starts buzzing with what could come next. There does come a time you need to step back and hope your baby birds can fly on their own, but at the same time, the ideas never stop…
No Surrender has wrapped, but your next projects will follow a number of major players in the storyline. Jim you're writing Nadia Pym, the Unstoppable Wasp, as part of a team over in Champions. What's your sense of what being part of a team means to Nadia, especially in the aftermath of No Surrender?
Zub: Nadia is physically young, but she’s been through a lot in terms of the time she spent in the Red Room and on the run before arriving in America and joining the All-New, All-Different Avengers. The Champions provide an interesting challenge for her because she’s one of three geniuses on the team. There’s going to be some peacocking as Riri, Amadeus and Nadia all try to impress each other and their other teammates. There’s also going to be some really hard decisions to be made in the days ahead.
I’m trying to channel the kind of teen drama and action I loved from series like The New Mutants and Generation-X without losing the activist spirit Mark built into the series. Nadia, with her optimistic heart and exuberance, is a big part of that.
Mark, you're bouncing Nadia off of the inheritor of her father's original heroic legacy, Scott Lang, in the Ant-Man &the Wasp miniseries. It seems like Scott and Nadia would have an especially fun dynamic.
Waid: Immensely fun, because they really have a very, very hard time not wanting to kill one another. When it comes to solving problems, Nadia’s a scalpel and Scott’s a meat cleaver. She’s in love with process and he’s more about results. Plus, Nadia won’t stop haranguing Scott about stealing her dad’s technology back in the day, whereas she had to recreate it on her own.
No Surrender added some elements to the cosmic corner of the Marvel Universe, and I understand that's where Stephen Strange is headed in your new Doctor Strange series. What's it like writing Strange against that back drop? What sort of hints and teases can you offer up about his initial space adventures?
Waid: That they really, really won’t go well for Stephen? Putting Dr. Strange behind the controls of a starship is like putting a grizzly bear behind the wheel of a Lamborghini, and he’s going to need to re-learn a lot about magic. Like, a LOT.
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Al, we've talked about your plans for Immortal Hulk, but Avengers #690 seemed to leave Bruce Banner in a pretty dark place after his talk with Hawkeye. It seems like he's wrestling with a whole lot of guilt, correct? And will he still be in that headspace when you pick up with him in Immortal Hulk #1?
Ewing: Bruce is definitely wrestling with guilt over putting Clint in that situation, but the other thing I wanted to get across in that scene was a kind of simmering, low-level anger. Bruce was trying to cure the Hulk right to the end, and he's now finding out that it's an incurable condition - even if the Challenger hadn't roused him, even if the Hand or Secret Empire hadn't woken him up, he'd have gotten up again eventually, because the Hulk always comes back.
Meanwhile, Hawkeye has been wrestling with a fantastic amount of guilt himself, not to mention losing friends, grieving, nearly going to the chair, and Bruce was the one who put him in that position. And now, just when he's starting to come to terms with it, Bruce pops up again and suddenly it was all meaningless.
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So, Clint's a little salty, and Bruce is a little... Hulky. And no, Bruce is not in a good place at the end of this. Bruce is at a low point, maybe lower than he's ever been in his life, and he's shutting everyone out - he's not spoken to Jen or Betty yet, you'll notice, nor has he mentioned Rick. And Clint asking him, at the end, to remember he's a good person - that's going to be a thread we stick with into Immortal Hulk #1. Is Bruce Banner a good person? Is he the man or the monster?
Is he both?
I'd like to give the traditional end-of-interview Big Thank You to everyone who followed this story over our sixteen weeks - the readers who came in from the previous Avengers books, and the readers who heard about the kerfuffle and decided to look in. You're all champions - wait, that's the other team. And a last public thank you to the whole crew for everything - it's been a pure joy to be involved in this.
Zub: This kind of massive project can easily create rifts between creators. The fact that we came through all this closer and even more respectful of each other is another part of the magic for me. It’s a Gauntlet we ran together and emerged on the other side stronger than ever.
Echoing what Al said, I’m incredibly grateful to all the retailers and readers who stayed on with us through the whole ride. The response has been incredible. Hearing from old and new Avengers fans that we did right by Earth’s Mightiest Heroes has been an absolute thrill. This was our way of showing what the Avengers mean to us and, knowing that it hit the spot for so many people makes this story even more special.
Brevoort: At the close of the series, as a special gift for all of the people who pulled together to make it happen, we printed up an extremely limited run of special custom No Surrender playing card decks as a thank you. There are fewer than 20 of these sets in existence, so they’re extremely hard to come by. But it seemed like the least we could do, and in keeping with the spirit of the project.
And now, having succeeded in doing it once, all thoughts turn to what we might be able to make of a second Avengers Weekly project at some point…