This is "From a Different Point of View," a feature where I discuss a comic book series with another writer. In this case, it is CBR's own Eileen Gonzalez who will be going over the history of the Avengers with me, story by story!

We continue with Avengers #3, "Sub-Mariner!" by Jack Kirby, Stan Lee and Paul Reinman

Brian Cronin: In the previous issue, we wondered who the Hulk could team-up with in this issue, but we thought that perhaps the title of the issue might be a bit of a clue, with the final page of Avengers #2 screaming "Sub-Mariner!" That seems like a clue

Eileen Gonzalez: The suspense was killing me! Who could it be?

Brian Cronin: We won't know until Page 15, according to the splash page!

Eileen Gonzalez: How cruel the creators are to us!

Brian Cronin: The latest "power/ability pulled out of thin air" opens the issue as Iron Man somehow has a device that allows himself to project basically a working hologram of himself anywhere he wants. Because, well, okay, sure

Eileen Gonzalez: He's too highbrow to use a phone like a normal person.

Brian Cronin: But Lee and Kirby cleverly use this as one of those classic "check in with the Marvel Universe" bits. It stands out like a sore thumb here, but it really DID serve to sell the inter-connectivity of the Marvel Universe. What's awesome is after he's checked in with everyone, the other Avengers are like, "Uh, why didn't you just ask Rick?"

Eileen Gonzalez: It mostly feels like padding to me, especially given that Rick is RIGHT THERE like you said, but I do love stories that intersect with other stories, so I can forgive it. I especially love Spidey's 'tude. "Do I tell you *my* troubles?" Right, okay, thanks Web-head.

Brian Cronin: Typical early Marvel Age reaction to other heroes. Well, that and assuming that everything is some sort of advertising stunt. "Oh man, I'm bleeding from the shrapnel from this Masters of Evil attack. What kind of strange advertising stunt is THIS?"

Eileen Gonzalez: Everyone is so blase in the Marvel universe. I guess it's a defense mechanism against the crazy.

Brian Cronin: That's a fine explanation. Eileen wants her No-Prize now, Marvel!

Eileen Gonzalez: *grabby hands*

Brian Cronin: It's kind of crazy just how much the Avengers rely on short wave radio in these early issues. "Oh, something awful happened and there wasn't some teen nerd nearby? I guess we're all screwed."

Eileen Gonzalez: I know it's partly a product of the era, since they just didn't HAVE internet, etc. back then, but there's always a part of me that points and giggles at mentions of these old technologies. The wonders of ham radio! The amazing power of transistors! Behold the future!

Brian Cronin: And giant piece of metal hidden inside of an armor that you can fashion into hammers! Cutting edge stuff!

Eileen Gonzalez: And yet Iron Man manages to cobble together a hologram machine. It's so much fun.

Brian Cronin: I like Jane Foster's cameo in #3. "It's been a long day, I'm going to close early." "Why does Don pamper himself? Why can't my love interest who has to walk with a cane be more rugged?"

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, Jane sure is... something. Doesn't she always compare him to Thor in the Journey into Mystery comics of the era? "Oh, disabled mortal man, why can't you be more like an immortal Norse god???" Boy is she in for a surprise

Page 2: [valnet-url-page page=2 paginated=0 text='Watch out for those cactus needles!']

Brian Cronin: I am living for the Hulk shooting cactus needles at Iron Man. And Iron Man using a rock as a shield!

Eileen Gonzalez: That was a great scene. So creative, that Hulk!

Brian Cronin: "Oh no, my armor can't stand getting hit by cactus needles!"

Eileen Gonzalez: I sure hope he has slats that come down over the eye holes. Has he invented those yet? This is probably what inspired them.

Brian Cronin: Tony Stark at a meeting one day with an eyepatch. "Tony, what happened?" "Cactus needle. It's a long story."

Eileen Gonzalez: "Uhhhh I got hit in the face with a tennis ball? The playboy life sure is hard lol"

Brian Cronin: It's fascinating that Iron Man is still trying to get the Hulk to remain on the team even as they brawl. Dude, that moment has clearly passed.

Eileen Gonzalez: Maybe he feels guilty for his part in chasing the Hulk away and is trying desperately to make up for it, even though that is obviously not an option anymore.

Brian Cronin: I liked the Hulk's strategy of ignoring how force and inertia works by reversing his direction in mid air while Thor and Iron Man keep going into the sky.

Eileen Gonzalez: Science? What's that? Hulk has no need of puny science! Also love Iron Man spinning Hulk around in midair like a top. Because he can do that.

Brian Cronin: Iron content. The answer for everything. It's also how Magneto can control people's minds, because...you know, iron content. This has been such an oddly plotted issue. I suspect that is why we got the title page added on. As Lee was likely surprised by how long it took for Namor to get involved. So he wanted to warn readers ahead of time

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, this is so much more decompressed than issue one. There's so little happening compared to the five different plots going on in their debut issue.

Brian Cronin: They then make up to it when Hulk meets Namor, though. As ALL SORTS OF STUFF HAPPEN in just the last few pages of the issue

Page 3: [valnet-url-page page=3 paginated=0 text='All sorts of stuff happens']

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, the whole issue is just everyone fighting everyone, but the last bit of the issue is even more of that. Because now you've got Hulk and Namor fighting the Avengers while fighting each other on the side.

Brian Cronin: I do adore the panel where Hulk and Namor are both thinking about how they're each going to screw the other guy over as soon as possible.

The big Hulk/Namor versus the Avengers fight is BONKERS! There's a scene literally where the Wasp is saved from being trampled to death by absolute happenstance!

Eileen Gonzalez: Ha, yeah. "Thanks heavens the ground here is so uneven!" Can't argue with that.

Brian Cronin: Where's that What If? "What if...the Avengers hadn't been bailed out by pure luck and trampled their own teammate to death?"

Eileen Gonzalez: And all those fancy gadgets that Namor pulls out to fight them with!

Brian Cronin: The Emery Pellet Gun!

Eileen Gonzalez: Iron Man really needs to upgrade that suit. He can be defeated by anything, it seems. I'm sad Namor never got to use the fancy air raid alarm.

Brian Cronin: It speaks to what you mentioned earlier about how old-fashioned everything seems in these issues

Eileen Gonzalez: It really is kinda quaint.

Brian Cronin: From a 1944 OSS handbook (perhaps written by former OSS operative Reed Richards?)

"4 (1) (b). The saboteur should be ingenious in using his everyday equipment. All sorts of weapons will present themselves if he looks at his surroundings in a different light. For example emery dust—a powerful weapon—may at first seem unobtainable, but if the saboteur were to pulverize an emery knife sharpener or emery wheel with a hammer, he would find himself with a plentiful supply."

Eileen Gonzalez: The more you know!

Brian Cronin: The all-powerful emery dust! These chats are proving to be dangerously informative. I expect some terrorist to cite us in the future. "I learned it from Brian and Eileen!"

Eileen Gonzalez: Ha! Wait till Iron Man gets some REALLY effective armor and we start talking about THAT.

Brian Cronin: It's amazing that the fight was so crowded that Kirby and Lee would later re-visit this scene in an issue of Journey Into Mystery to show the fight that we didn't get to see between Hulk and Thor. Was that really the best solution there rather than just have Hulk and Thor meet and fight?

Eileen Gonzalez: I remember reading that! It does seem like an odd choice. Especially when they could have fit it into this issue if they just cut some of the fluff from the beginning.

Brian Cronin: The perils of the Marvel Method

Eileen Gonzalez: Was this issue really so popular that they thought people wanted to see it expanded on?

Brian Cronin: But really, "Let's see Hulk and Thor fight. I know, let's set it between panels of that old Avengers issue!"

Such an odd impulse.

Eileen Gonzalez: Because that is the ONLY TIME Thor and Hulk have fought, so creating a new scenario was entirely out of the question.

Brian Cronin: Ha! "That's all we have to work with, I'm afraid." It'd be great if all future Hulk/Thor fights were just worked into between other panels of that issue. "What you missed on page 3 was that the Hulk and Thor vanished into limbo for another fight that you didn't see!"

Eileen Gonzalez: That's how all fight scenes must be framed from now on. Just fights within fights within fights.

Page 4: [valnet-url-page page=4 paginated=0 text='The cop-out ending and Thor is really impressed by Namor...']

Brian Cronin: So they have the standard cop out of the Hulk turning into Banner again. Kirby and Lee re-use that in the epic FF/Avengers vs. Hulk story in FF #25-26.

Also, Lee forgets his name isn't Bob Banner

Eileen Gonzalez: I did wonder about the Hulk becoming Bruce Banner. He says it's the stress that caused him to change back. Was it not established yet that stress is what CAUSES Banner to Hulk out? Or does it work both ways: stress just always causes him to change forms? (Also, hi, Bob, nice to meet you)

Brian Cronin: As we saw earlier in issue #3, it just isn't making any sense at this point. He just turns into the Hulk in his sleep for some reason

Eileen Gonzalez: True. I don't know why I bother trying, lol

Brian Cronin: You're itching for that second No-Prize!

Eileen Gonzalez: I'm a No-Prize collector

Brian Cronin: So it's now Namor versus all comers

Eileen Gonzalez: So everything is normal?

Brian Cronin: And when he escapes, it is amazing how the Avenger react! "He's earned his escape" from Thor - which, WHAT?

And "It's a pity he's not on our side" from Giant-Man. Which, again, WHAT? Namor was a flat out villain in this issue!

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, isn't it you guys' job to stop people who try to kill you and subjugate humanity? But no, he did a good job in the fight scene, so we'll let him go. And meanwhile, Namor is just flying away and waving like "so long, suckers!"

There is no E for Effort in supervillainy

Brian Cronin: And this is after Iron Man offered to just let him talk things out. Then again, that's sort of Iron Man's annoying habit this whole issue. Big battle and then, "Hey, want to just talk?"

Eileen Gonzalez: Whenever Iron Man feels like he's losing he defaults to "hey, no, really, I just wanna help. How about we chat over a sandwich?" If you really want to settle things nonviolently, stop being violent!

Brian Cronin: That actually does sort of sound like Iron Man during Civil War, though, doesn't it?

Eileen Gonzalez: I have only dim memories of Civil War, but that sounds about right.

Brian Cronin: At the end, I kept hearing "Cold Hearted Snake" when Iron Man noted that Namor doesn't play by our rules!

Eileen Gonzalez: I just like staring at the floaty heads in the last panel. I wanna play whack-a-mole with them.

Brian Cronin: At least Namor is done with and it's not like he'll have any impact on any future issues. Certainly not the MOVIE-LENGTH next issue. "Movie -length?"

Eileen Gonzalez: How long were movies back then?

Brian Cronin: About 20 minutes, I gather

Eileen Gonzalez: That checks out.

Brian Cronin: Cleopatra...the 20-minute version.

Eileen Gonzalez: Ben-Hur: Abridged

Brian Cronin: I bet they could get these issues to actual movie length if they included Thor's PowerPoint presentation about Hulk's pants

Eileen Gonzalez: It is truly an epic of Asgardian proportions!

There's not really much of an audience participation element in this particular column, but I guess you could write in if you have stuff you'd like to see us discuss in future Avengers issues (or questions about the stories)! Drop me a line at brianc@cbr.com!