This is "From a Different Point of View," a feature where I discuss a comic book series with another writer. In this case, it is CBR's own Eileen Gonzalez who will be going over the history of the Avengers with me, story by story!

We continue with Avengers #2, "The Avengers Battle the Space Phantom," by Jack Kirby, Stan Lee and Paul Reinman

Brian Cronin: My pal Avash asked whether Stan Lee and Jack Kirby ever really intended the Hulk to be a regular member of the Avengers. What do you think?

Eileen Gonzalez: It doesn't really feel that way. Both this story and the one before it are set up explicitly to demonstrate how much animosity there is between the Hulk and the other Avengers. Or if they did intend for the Hulk to be a permanent member in the first issue, they regretted it immediately and undid it with the second.

Brian Cronin: It's weird. It would be super clever if this was all planned. But I tend to think the latter is more likely than the former. After all, Kirby and Lee had patented the whole "Superhero team who bickered" with the FF. So I don't think they would necessarily be against that sort of deal with another superhero team.

Eileen Gonzalez: True, but I don't know if they had that much time for planning in advance back then.

Brian Cronin: I think they just realized it made NO sense. The fascinating thing is that the Hulk did not have his own series at the time, so it wasn't like he had a fallback plan. It was here or nowhere for the Hulk.

Eileen Gonzalez: The Hulk does continue to show up in Avengers comics from time to time, but generally as an adversary. So yeah, that does feel like a weird choice if he didn't have his own series. He was supposed to be a hero, after all, not a villain, and yet every time he shows up in early Avengers comics, he's cast as the antagonist, however unwillingly (or unwittingly).

Brian Cronin: Yeah, he really is the enemy in, what, four of the first five issues? He really was used as a sort of recurring villain for the early issues.

Brian Cronin: And he's a team member in half of those issues! In the meantime, he also fights the Avengers alongside the Fantastic Four in Fantastic Four #25-26

Eileen Gonzalez: That's such a weird thing to do with your hero. I mean, in his defense, he's generally being manipulated by a greater evil, but still. (At least in the comics I've read he's being manipulated.)

Brian Cronin: Could they just have thought, "Eh, he works better as an antagonist?" If we're assuming (and I think we're right to assume) that Kirby did the plotting of #1 almost by himself, it could be a case of Lee telling him that he wanted to go in a different direction for #2. As I write that, that actually seems to be the most likely scenario for me now.

Eileen Gonzalez: Could be. Maybe either Lee, Kirby or someone above them didn't like the direction the Hulk was going and ordered a change.

Brian Cronin: I am more and more thinking that it was a case of Kirby writing the Hulk as a member, Lee then decides he like the Hulk better as an antagonist and so he tells Kirby to come up with a plot for #2 where they can write the Hulk out. Because wow, from page one, they're all at each others throats big time!

Page 2: [valnet-url-page page=2 paginated=0 text='Why can't the Avengers and Hulk get along?']

Eileen Gonzalez: And it's not even the Hulk who instigates the fighting in the second issue! Thor just up and insults him for no reason!

Brian Cronin: Who would have thought Thor would have been such a bastion of modesty that he's irked that the Hulk is only wearing shorts? And rocking his weird-ass three-toed feet!

Eileen Gonzalez: Maybe Hulk reminds Thor of the trolls from last issue.

Brian Cronin: I don't think any depiction of the Hulk depicts those weird three toes better than the opening page of #2. Most of the time it looks like the Hulk only has three toes because they sort of skimmed over the detail. But here, that stuff is carefully delineated!

Eileen Gonzalez: Huh, I didn't even notice the feet. Yeah, that is weird! You can see he has four toes at least in other drawings, but that is definitely three there.

Brian Cronin: I think that is the peak of "three-toed Hulk"

Eileen Gonzalez: You can see it on the cover too. Apparently I haven't been looking at the characters' feet enough.

Brian Cronin: Ha! Well, just don't google "Feet" with anyone's name! That's a whole other rabbit hole!

Early on in the meeting, we get a fascinating glimpse into the Wasp's psyche. And it is interesting to note that she's actually THINKING about Thor The whole deal has been "Oh, she's just trying to make Hank jealous," but those thought balloons sure suggest otherwise, right?

Eileen Gonzalez: It does look that way! I was actually thinking about the Wasp a lot while reading this issue. I almost want to give all her silly behavior (thinking only about how nice everyone's eyes are, commenting on how bad the growth pills taste, etc.) a pass, given that she's only supposed to be about 20 or so here. Of course someone that young will be a little immature, right? But on the other hand, if you're going to be out fighting bad guys, shouldn't you also be more focused on the task at hand instead of thinking about how cute all your coworkers are/trying to make your not-boyfriend jealous?

Brian Cronin: Obviously, it's a failing of Lee ultimately, but yeah, the Wasp sure does not come off well in these early issues

Eileen Gonzalez: Heck, she even comments on how cute the disguised Space Phantom is

Brian Cronin: Then again, they also treat like a sidekick most of the time

Eileen Gonzalez: That's very true! She does feel more like a team sidekick. Kind of a useless one, too...

Brian Cronin: Like the team mascot. When we first meet the Space Phantom, he notes that he's been watching them for months. Say whaaaaa? Months?

Are we seriously supposed to think that this team had been together for MONTHS between issue #1 and 2?

Eileen Gonzalez: It took them a very long time to coordinate this team meeting, apparently.

Brian Cronin: Imagine the untold stories that could be told!

Eileen Gonzalez: All about Thor's battles to get the Hulk to dress better!

Brian Cronin: By the way, how adorable is Iron Man's weird line early on. About how they still meet regularly to get to know each other? You never see that pop up in a modern comic book.

Eileen Gonzalez: Tony is very lonely, he needs friends

Brian Cronin: "Today is show and tell day"

Eileen Gonzalez: And yet they still don't know each other's secret identities. That's the '60s for you!

Brian Cronin: And Giant-Man and the Wasp are only just NOW telling them that they use pills to shrink and grow! These meetings must have been quite weird over those last few months! As you note, probably just Thor bitching about Hulk's outfit

Eileen Gonzalez: So if they don't discuss their real identities OR how their heroic identities function, what do they talk about all day? Soap operas?

Brian Cronin: Hulk's outfit! Thor has a powerpoint

Eileen Gonzalez:

I bet it has fancy transitions and everything

Brian Cronin: It also fits well for the conceit of the issue, which is the Space Phantom impersonating the various members of the Avengers and therefore manipulating them into attacking each other because they clearly don't really trust each other yet, even with the constant meetings.

Page 3: [valnet-url-page page=3 paginated=0 text='Iron Man is still just a war monger, huh?']

Brian Cronin: The fascinating thing, as we'll see next issue, is just how in FLUX these characters are. Ant-Man becomes Giant-Man and next issue, Iron Man gets actual half decent armor. It's so weird seeing them evolve every issue

Eileen Gonzalez: That's one of my favorite things about reading older comics. I love seeing where they came from and how they slowly morph into what they are now.

Brian Cronin: It's also interesting to get the reminder that, "Oh yeah, early Tony Stark is a straight up war monger." That missile gun in the second issue! What the heck, Tony?!

Eileen Gonzalez: I want to be horrified by the implications of that gun, but I'm mostly laughing at how silly it looks. And don't forget that moon truck thing later in the issue!

Brian Cronin: Speaking of "how silly," we also get to see the awesome sight of Tony charging up his breastplate in an outlet!

Eileen Gonzalez: That's the miracle of transistors.

Brian Cronin: And then in his fight with "Hulk," where he pauses the fight while he assembles a hammer out of parts inside his armor!"Just wait a sec, I'm putting a weapon together to hit you."

Eileen Gonzalez: He's half Transformer

Brian Cronin: Granted, the Hulk is a bit dazed since he was just returned from limbo (where the Space Phantom sends people while he impersonates them), but still. Although, really, teasing aside, once you've decided to break the team up, this is really a rather brilliant approach, from a psychological perspective. Showing how much they all distrust each other, but ESPECIALLY the Hulk.

Eileen Gonzalez : I feel bad for the Hulk, to be honest. He's not the easiest to get along with, sure, but I don't think he deserved THAT much animosity. And I do find the Avengers a little disingenuous here--they'll occasionally give the Hulk a line like "we just want to talk!" or "we want to save you from yourself!" but meanwhile they've just spent the last page, like, throwing tires at him. Kind of a mixed message there. I don't think they really tried as hard as they could have.

Brian Cronin: Oh, totally. He tries to make the most of everything and it just keeps going back to them not trusting him.

It's like he's trapped by people's expectations of him. If only he had agreed to wear a shirt, maybe they would have trusted him!

Eileen Gonzalez: True. Everyone's rude to him and then they are shocked--SHOCKED I TELL YOU--when he's rude back.

Brian Cronin: Obviously, Lee picked up on the concept and went with it in the Hulk feature later on. Where Hulk just wants to be left alone but his very existence insures that he CAN'T be left alone

Eileen Gonzalez: That's pretty sad. The only person he can trust is Rick Jones.

Brian Cronin: It really is. And even Rick, as we will see, will drop him in an instant for some Bucky action.

Eileen Gonzalez: Ha, yeah, I forgot about that.

Page 4: [valnet-url-page page=4 paginated=0 text='It all falls apart...']

Brian Cronin: How amazing is the cameo by the Teen Brigade member's parents? "Hey, ma, pa, we're calling an Avenger over here!"

Eileen Gonzalez: And Rick is so annoyed. He's the only one who realizes this is SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Brian Cronin: Also, the whole Ant-Man/Giant-Man thing makes NO sense. He's wearing his Giant-Man outfit all through the issue, but they act like there's a change at the midway point of the issue, even including a citation to Giant-Man's debut! And during the fight, how awesome is Wasp's brand-new power?

Eileen Gonzalez: Hank Pym has always been a mess of terrible costumes and codenames.

Brian Cronin: "She's hyper-sensitive to certain stimuli." You just pulled that completely out of your ass, Stan!

Eileen Gonzalez: It's hypersensitivity PLUS woman's intuition. I facepalmed so hard at that. And then it never comes up again.

Brian Cronin: Just like Namor's ability to puff up like a puffer fish

Eileen Gonzalez: I accept that over the woman's intuition thing.

Brian Cronin: Maybe if they had said her attenae pick up stuff? But nope, women's intuition. "Well, there has to be a reason for why we keep her around, right? Women stuff!"

Eileen Gonzalez: You'd think her woman's intuition would help her avoid getting kidnapped once in a while, but NOPE. She just senses Space Phantoms with it.

Brian Cronin: And they win the day due to Iron Man's awful early armor. How is it not waterproof?!?

Eileen Gonzalez: How has that not come up before? Has there been a drought since he built that armor??

Brian Cronin: I doubt they gave it any thought either way. Just like how they had him paint his armor gold to stop scaring people. It's the same armor, just painted gold!

Eileen Gonzalez: Gold is clearly the least scary color.

Brian Cronin: Oh, and speaking of powers pulled out of nowhere, Space Phantom's powers don't work on Thor for...reasons

Eileen Gonzalez: Magical Asgardian reasons

Brian Cronin: But anyhow, the damage is done and they've now made an enemy of the Hulk! That shouldn't come back to haunt them for some time, right? Wait, NEXT ISSUE?!

Eileen Gonzalez: Instant karma strikes Earth's Mightiest Heroes in our next exciting issue!

Brian Cronin: I wonder who he will team-up with in the next issue? Huh, let's see the title. "Sub-Mariner!" by Jack Kirby, Stan Lee and Paul Reinman. That seems like a clue

Eileen Gonzalez: The suspense is killing me! Who could it be?

There's not really much of an audience participation element in this particular column, but I guess you could write in if you have stuff you'd like to see us discuss in future Avengers issues (or questions like Avash)! Drop me a line at brianc@cbr.com!