This is "From a Different Point of View," a feature where I discuss a comic book series with another writer. In this case, it is CBR's own Eileen Gonzalez who will be going over the history of the Avengers with me, story by story!

We continue with Avengers #5, "The Invasion of the Lava Men" by Jack Kirby, Stan Lee and Paul Reinman

Brian Cronin: Yet another inker change!

This issue picks up from the first major Avengers appearance in another title, as the Avengers and Fantastic Four teamed up to fight the Hulk in Fantastic Four #26 and it ended with that standard "Oops, he turned back into Bob Banner and then disappeared" cop out.

Eileen Gonzalez: Is this where the idea of Bruce Banner's middle name being Robert comes from?

Brian Cronin: Yeah, that's exactly where it came from, as Stan Lee coming up with an excuse for why he kept calling him Bob Banner.

Eileen Gonzalez: Ah, the creative process at work.

Brian Cronin: Oh, actually, apparently Robert is his FIRST name. So Stan wanted to really make sure he was "correct" with Bob!

Eileen Gonzalez: Ha!

Brian Cronin: Then the TV series adds David to the mix

Eileen Gonzalez: I haven't seen the series, but I did hear they called him David for some reason.

Brian Cronin: Kenneth Johnson, the creator of the TV series thought that alliterative names sounded too comic book-y. So that ruled out both Bruce AND Bob.

Eileen Gonzalez: I was gonna say my theory was they wanted to avoid associations with Bruce Wayne

Brian Cronin: And since Johnson's son's name was David, shockingly, that name was chosen.

Eileen Gonzalez: Who could have foreseen?

Brian Cronin: That led to a whole "thing" where people felt that it was because the name Bruce sounded "too gay." But suffice it to say that Kenneth Johnson is not that stupid and it was just the alliterative aspect of it all. Which is also kind of stupid, to be fair, but not nearly as much as "that name sounds gay!"

Eileen Gonzalez: Behind-the-scenes stories are always so fun! A shame they get blown out of proportion sometimes, like with the Bruce = gay thing.

Brian Cronin: So the issue picks right off from where the Avengers and the Fantastic Four have fought the Hulk through New York City, trashing Avengers Mansion in the process. Man, the Hulk was really the focal point of SO MUCH of the early issues.

Eileen Gonzalez: And all because Rick Jones picked Cap over him

Brian Cronin: We see the Avengers then go off to do their own private stuff, and you have to love how happy Cap is to go practice acrobatics with Rick.

Eileen Gonzalez: Rick AND all his Teen Brigade buddies. And he throws in an "eat your veggies" PSA for no extra charge!

Brian Cronin: Oh man, the "you have to eat right" PSA is amazing.

Eileen Gonzalez: "Eat right, get plenty of rest, agree to dangerous government experiments and you too can become a super soldier!"

Brian Cronin: Almost as amazing as the shot of Tony plugging his chestplate into an electrical outlet. WHILE SMOKING A CIGARETTE!

Eileen Gonzalez: And yeah, Tony, don't you have a heart condition? Put out the cigarette!

Brian Cronin: It's such a 1960s thing, right? Like you can imagine seeing some doctor, like, delivering a baby while smoking a cigarette

Eileen Gonzalez: Ha, yeah, wouldn't surprise me if Dr. Don Blake suddenly lit up in the middle of work

Brian Cronin: He needs it from the stress he gets from his back and forths with Jane Foster.

Eileen Gonzalez: Darn women driving men to ruin

Page 2: [valnet-url-page page=2 paginated=0 text='Cap officially meets the Avengers!']

Brian Cronin:I like that we keep up the tradition of headlines of newspapers that only exist in comic book panels.

Brian Cronin: NEW TRAIN ACCIDENT! ENGINEER CLAIMS A MYSTERIOUS SOUND CAUSED HIM TO LOSE CONTROL!

Because, you know, that's how headlines work.

Eileen Gonzalez: It's the Daily Exposition. Get all your news in all caps in a giant font

Brian Cronin: What's fascinating about the Teen Brigade is that A. they just won't go away and B. they finally DO go away when the Avengers' lineup becomes a lot weaker in a year or so. Isn't it bizarre that Rick Jones is a standard member of the team NOW and yet not when it's just Cap, Hawkeye, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch?

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, you'd think they'd want someone around who had SOME experience with the team, now that all the originals had left. Even if that someone is a random kid who got a few tumbling lessons from Captain America and knows how to use a ham radio

Brian Cronin: It just seems so weird that Thor shows up and is all, "There is a terrible danger coming!" and Cap is like, "Well, we better bring Rick along!" Dude is just rocking his sweater and tie look. Perfect for fighting criminals.

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, he's not even an official sidekick or anything, despite Cap's repeated suggestions that he's going to make him the new Bucky. And then when Rick DOES become the new Bucky, it's for about six issues before Red Skull mucks it up. Didn't Stan Lee dislike kid sidekicks? Maybe that's the reason for Rick Jones' unofficial status and ultimate departure?

Brian Cronin: He has always SAID he disliked kid sidekicks. But if he had a problem with Rick, you'd think he would have told Kirby to get rid of him by this point. I honestly think the Snapper Carr influence was big here.

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, they even look alike

Brian Cronin: Since Snapper was such a big part of the Justice League, Lee and Kirby felt they should follow the same approach with their Justice League-esque title.

Eileen Gonzalez: Thank goodness Rick wasn't as big on the "hip" slang... yet.

Brian Cronin: As otherwise, it really doesn't make ANY sense.

We get some quick Hulk recaps, as Bruce Banner is back to his original status quo.

Interestingly, Hulk doesn't get his new feature for a while after this issue. But it seems like they're at least CONSIDERING him getting his own feature, right?

Why else would they spend so much time setting him back up in his old status quo?

Eileen Gonzalez: True. The bit where he shows up at the site with the living rock seems to go out of its way to introduce us to his situation and supporting cast. I know Ross is supposed to be gruff and rude here, but honestly, I'm kinda on his side? If my employee vanished without a trace and then showed up again with the excuse that he was "sick" and just never bothered calling in, I'd be upset too. That's the tragedy of the Hulk, I guess.

Brian Cronin: Oh yeah, Ross is totally in the right in this specific instance. Banner's excuses are pathetic.

Eileen Gonzalez: Then again, imagine trying to convince the Hulk to pick up a phone and call in sick to work.

Brian Cronin: Oh true, like you said, it is the tragedy of the Hulk. This is the first time we learn of the Avengers having a special security clearance.

A-1 security clearance, thank you very much!

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, when is that supposed to have happened? Maybe Tony wangled it with his government connections. Not to mention their snazzy state-of-the-art helicopter! Who needs a Quinjet?

Brian Cronin: In his 2005 maxiseries, Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes (with artist Scott Kolins), Joe Casey spent a lot of time filling in all of that background stuff.

He seriously wrote three different Avengers miniseries (Origin and then two volumes of Earth's Mightiest Heroes) that seemed to primarily be about explaining various background bits. And yet they're actually all really well done!

Eileen Gonzalez: That's so cool! It's great that we get to see these early issues fleshed out a little too. They're entertaining on their own, but they do leave a lot of questions unanswered.

Brian Cronin: Yeah

Page 3: [valnet-url-page page=3 paginated=0 text='Who is this broccoli alien?']

Brian Cronin: How odd is the bit where Cap tells Rick to just let Iron Man do what he wants? "We don't question each other's commands"

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, early Avengers are weird that way. I don't think that's really the way a team works there. There is no I in team, but there sure is one in Iron Man. Wait, do the Avengers even have an official leader at this point?

Brian Cronin: I think they rotate. They even let WASP be a leader at one point!

Eileen Gonzalez: What if they all give conflicting commands all at once? Are they still not allowed to question? This seems like a bad system.

Brian Cronin: Exactly! It makes no sense!

Eileen Gonzalez: And of course Iron Man's first response to this unknown object is to hit it as hard as he can.

Brian Cronin: It's interesting to see some minor Thor characters become a major threat in this issue.

Eileen Gonzalez: Ah yes, Molto the Lava Man. Who is so convinced of humanity's mercy even though his debut issue ended with Thor chucking him into a volcano. Also, this is the Marvel universe. Since when have they reacted well to anyone even remotely different? He is very optimistic, Molto is.

Brian Cronin: At least the Lava Men didn't think that the surface world was just some sort of lava advertising stunt. "I don't believe there IS a surface world! It's all some sort of publicity stunt!"

Eileen Gonzalez: Ha, true. They are ahead of us on that front

Brian Cronin: But really, everyone outside of Thor and Iron Man seem WAY out of their depths here. Bringing Rick Jones to a fight with freakin' LAVA MEN seems incredibly reckless. That sight of Rick chipping away at the cinders forming around Cap?

He does not belong here! CAP doesn't belong here! But Rick super DUPER doesn't belong here!

Eileen Gonzalez: Agreed! Same for the Wasp, honestly. Giant-Man at least can grab the helicopter to make himself useful, but what is Wasp going to do exactly?

Brian Cronin: Even Giant-Man, though, it's not like he's not vulnerable to LAVA, right? Iron Man and Thor at least have each shown some ability to resist the heat. Although Iron Man would be screwed when the lava gets in his eye slots, if the danger from the cactus needles proved anything

Eileen Gonzalez: Iron Man did need a rescue from Thor early on, when the Lava Men started heating his armor. At this point, I'm thinking the Avengers should just leave Thor to it. But then a freak accident takes Thor out of things so...

Brian Cronin: True

Brian Cronin: The Avengers also continue to not trust each other at ALL. Like when Giant-Man went to get the helicopter to cool down the Lava Men

Iron Man automatically assumes he's just bailing on him!

Brian Cronin: These people have SERIOUS trust issues

Eileen Gonzalez: And yet their policy is to never question each others' orders.

Brian Cronin: RIGHT?

Eileen Gonzalez: It's a wonder this team lasted as long as it did.

Page 4: [valnet-url-page page=4 paginated=0 text='A battle royale!']

Brian Cronin: I just love that Hulk seriously just stumbles into the mission.

Eileen Gonzalez: So convenient!

Brian Cronin: And they still haven't decided on a trigger for how Banner turns into the Hulk. The current standard remains "whenever it is convenient for the story"

Eileen Gonzalez: I do think it's interesting that Banner remarks on how the Avengers were only trying to help him, even though we've seen from previous issues that the Avengers were unnecessarily violent and rude to the Hulk at every turn. I wonder if Banner's perceptions of the world are different from the Hulk's?

Brian Cronin: I took all of that as Lee just trying to re-shape the narrative.

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, that's probably it

Brian Cronin: Especially as this issue sort of serves to finally wrap Hulk's plot up until he gets his own feature in the future. This is a May cover dated book. The Hulk fights Spider-Man in the July cover dated book. And then the Hulk gets his own feature in a September cover dated Tales to Astonish.

Eileen Gonzalez: Hulk just fighting his way across the Marvel universe

Brian Cronin: So you'd have to think that they were already considering the new feature at this point, right?

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, probably. They likely wanted as many people introduced to the Hulk as possible before the big debut

Brian Cronin: Yeah, and they re-establish his status quo and wrap everything up when they're done with him in this issue, getting him ready for his own stories.

Eileen Gonzalez: That would explain why he doesn't show up in the Avengers again for a while (at least, I don't think he does).

Brian Cronin: Not until Kap's Kooky Quartet, so yeah, they seem to be finally finished with him. How awesome is "My radio-active rod against your whirling hammer" in terms of villain threats?

Eileen Gonzalez: Silver Age dialogue at its finest! And then those darn pesky molecules, making Thor change back to Don Blake

Brian Cronin: Hah! I love that it is still early enough that they are still just plucking powers and abilities and stuff like that out of nowhere. "Uhhh...yeah, let's say that the molecules turn him back into Don Blake. Why not?"

Eileen Gonzalez: The Avengers' real superpower: making up stuff. Like Thor surviving the lava bath thanks to the magnetism in his hammer

Brian Cronin: It's interesting seeing Kirby and Lee deal with the same problem that Justice League writers have always had, "How do you come up with a threat that Superman/Thor can't just solve by himself?" So just like how Justice League villains somehow always have access to kryptonite or magic, so, too, does the Lava Men have "Thor-canceling" molecules

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, otherwise it's like what we were saying before: Thor could probably have handled this threat by himself. It's not like he hasn't defeated the Lava Men/a Lava Man before

Brian Cronin: So this leaves it to his allies, who manage to trick the Hulk into punching the living rock at just the right spot to save the day. Wasp was even useful here, leading the Hulk to hit the right spot!

Eileen Gonzalez: How literal is the term "living" rock here? Like... did they just kill some unknown life form? Not saying it was unnecessary, but that would be kinda dark for a comic of this era.

Brian Cronin: Good question. It doesn't SEEM sentient

Eileen Gonzalez: But kudos to the Wasp for figuring out how to defeat the thing!

Brian Cronin: She, of course, made sure to point out that it was Cap's idea.

Eileen Gonzalez: Wasp is great at delivering messages to and from her teammates

Brian Cronin: We should have a "Hank Pym mental health warning" counter. As "Well, that wraps it up! Funny...it's always somewhat of a let-down when a battle is over!" is not a healthy thought expression.

He sounds like a guy who is about to get addicted to heroin. Just to keep feeling something

Eileen Gonzalez: Seriously!! I can't even count the number of times I have wanted to shake all the Avengers and scream at them to get Hank to a psychiatrist already! But that would be prying into each others' personal lives, I guess

Brian Cronin: "We can't question Hank's commands! We all have to do heroin!"

Eileen Gonzalez: Ha!

Brian Cronin: But yeah, they did a nice job of resolving the Hulk's outstanding Avengers issues with him saving the day. And, of course, the teen brigade leads them to a new adventure the next issue. Because without the teen brigade, they wouldn't know what was going on in the world at all.

Eileen Gonzalez: Gotta get advice from the hip, plugged-in youngsters. At least they leave the Hulk alone for a while now.

Brian Cronin: I also tend to believe that Lee just added that teen brigade bit at the end, as Kirby clearly does not start off next issue with the Avengers responding to an emergency.

Eileen Gonzalez: If I remember, there is some wonky time stuff going on in the next issue, which might have been them attempting to connect this issue with the next. Like the Teen Brigade do call them for help, but not till part way through the issue

Brian Cronin: I think it's all just Lee trying to make the events fit what he had them say at the end of #5. The pitfalls of the Marvel Method!

Eileen Gonzalez: But hey, at least it gives us something to nitpick and laugh about

Brian Cronin: And we are very grateful to them for it!

Eileen Gonzalez: Forever and always.

Feel free to write in if you have stuff you'd like to see us discuss in future Avengers issues (or questions about the stories)! You send your questions, requests and/or comments to me at brianc@cbr.com!