This is "From a Different Point of View," a feature where I discuss a comic book series with another writer. In this case, it is CBR's own Eileen Gonzalez who will be going over the history of the Avengers with me, story by story!

We continue with Avengers #4, "Captain America Joins...the Avengers!" by Jack Kirby, Stan Lee and George Roussos

Brian Cronin: It's interesting to note that this is the third inker for Kirby in four issues. I imagine Marvel was just sort of assigning issues to inkers almost haphazardly back then, but it's still a bit of a surprise to see three inkers in just four issues.

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, I guess it was just a matter of grabbing whoever was available

Brian Cronin: It's also interesting to see just how CONNECTED these past three issues were, right? It's essentially one long story from #2-4, while each issue was still its own distinct little thing.

Eileen Gonzalez: It's definitely been surprising to me (even though I've read these issues before!). I tend to think of Silver Age stories as stand-alones, but this one's practically it's own little soap opera.

Brian Cronin: All about Thor's distaste for Hulk's wardrobe choices

Eileen Gonzalez: Which seems a little unfair, given that in the issue after this Hulk's clothes seem to magically change color. Bruce Banner goes from a blue jumpsuit to the purple Hulk pants. You'd think magic clothes would win Thor's approval

Brian Cronin: Have you ever read Strange Tales #114?

Eileen Gonzalez: I think I have, but it's been years

Brian Cronin: That's the issue where Lee and Kirby have a fake Captain America fight the Human Torch.

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, that definitely looks familiar.

Brian Cronin: It's fascinating seeing them do this weird little "test" case for bringing Cap back.

Eileen Gonzalez: Ah, so when the splash page of Avengers #4 talks about the "avalanche of fan mail" that demanded Cap's return, the fan mail was in response to that issue, I suppose.

Brian Cronin: I think fans had been asking for him to return as soon as they brought Namor back, which was TWO YEARS earlier, but they just weren't sure.

They had given Cap a comeback in the 1950s and it flopped. And I think Lee was really wary about using the older heroes. He only agreed to use Human Torch through a compromise with Martin Goodman that it would be a NEW Human Torch. Goodman thought that they should just do a team book featuring their older Golden Age characters (like Cap, Namor and Human Torch). The fascinating thing is, let's say that Lee and Kirby HAD done that book. I find it hard to believe that it WOULDN'T have worked, really.

Eileen Gonzalez: I remember hearing about the '50s Cap, mostly through later issues of Captain America where the '50s version came back as a crazed racist. It seems funny now, hearing that anyone was uncertain about using properties that are now box office gold mines. And yet Cap wasn't always such a sure bet, either in the comics or in those cheap movies we got in the '70s and '90s.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, and so Lee held off on bringing him back (he was probably still smarting from the 1950s failure). But two years in, people likely were thinking, "Where's Cap?" So we get that "test case" issue and obviously, people responded well to it. How funny is it that the front page specifically references Kirby drawing Cap in the Golden Age, but not that Kirby, you know, CO-CREATED Cap!

Eileen Gonzalez: I guess Stan Lee forgot to mention that bit.

Brian Cronin: "I think Kirby had something to do with Cap, but more importantly, my first script was a Cap script! I guess you could say that I am his creator."

Eileen Gonzalez: "Joe Simon? Who's that?"

Brian Cronin: "Aren't we ALL Cap's creators?"

Eileen Gonzalez: And the little note about saving this issue because you'll "treasure it in time to come." Well, they weren't wrong.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, that has got to be a fairly early push for an issue as a collectible.

Eileen Gonzalez: Either Lee was good at faking enthusiasm about a character he wasn't sure about, or he knew what he had by the time this issue went into production.

Brian Cronin: I think it's probably a little bit of both.

Page 2: [valnet-url-page page=2 paginated=0 text='Cap officially meets the Avengers!']

Brian Cronin: It's hilarious how much of a dick Namor is at the start of the issue. Just chucking the thing that they're worshipping into the ocean and then racistly bemoaning how low he has fallen, that he's stuck picking on Eskimos.

Eileen Gonzalez: I personally would like to thank Namor for introducing something these comics have been sorely missing: old timey racism.

Like, no one was forcing you to bully these guys, Namor. That's on YOU.

Brian Cronin: Right? It's hilarious, as he's trashing all their stuff, he keeps on talking about how bad all of this is. (Picks up a huge thing of ice and swings at them) "Is this what I have fallen to?" Actually, as I write that, I realize it's probably just a failing of the Marvel Method, as Kirby was likely just having Namor be an outright dick. While Lee threw in the self-questioning stuff, making it seem all the more odd.

Eileen Gonzalez: That would make more sense, having Namor just throw a temper tantrum rather than philosophizing about how his life sucks now.

Brian Cronin: Lee and Kirby both do a magnificent job on the discovery pages, though. That's where their combined talents really shined through. Lee really over-selling just HOW famous Cap is worked really well. Even Thor's all, "Wow, THE Captain America?"

Eileen Gonzalez: Seconded. That panel of Cap lying on the bed with his tattered uniform revealing his costume is one of my favorites ever. It's gorgeous.

Even Iron Man's goofy mask can't ruin it.

Brian Cronin: Ha! His weird mask choices probably explain why he thinks Cap's mask has a "proud A" on it. He just has weird ideas about masks. A "proud A"? Is that a thing, Tony?

Eileen Gonzalez: There's a reason that Wasp became the fashion designer and not Iron Man.

Brian Cronin: Kirby, of course, was a masterful storyteller, but wow, even for him, the sequence where Cap steadies himself?

SO IMPRESSIVE.

Eileen Gonzalez: I honestly I had to sit and stare at some of these panels for a bit, especially the ones later on where Cap is fighting like six guys at the same time. Kirby portrays everything so well.

Brian Cronin: "Augh! Bucky!" "Okay, I'm good now."

Eileen Gonzalez: And Cap never angsted about Bucky again.

Brian Cronin: Ha!

But wow, talk about selling a character beautifully!

He shows up, he freaks out, he steadies himself, puts his mask on, the others are like, "Are you seriously Cap?" and his first take is, "Well, come at me then."

And then just sort of disinterestedly shows them all up like it's nothing. It's simply outstanding work by Kirby.

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, Cap's training is really kicking in here. He's in this utterly bizarre and unprecedented situation, and he's handling it like a pro. Obviously he'll have some issues to work out later, but those panels do show Cap at his strongest and most determined. And yet he's stopped in his tracks by a girl.

Brian Cronin: It's like he's in an episode of Scooby Doo, only it's "A g-g-g-g-GIRL?!"

Eileen Gonzalez: I'm pretty sure you've seen girls before, Cap!

Brian Cronin: Then the explanation for what happened to him. Once again, the economy of images by Kirby is masterful. The whole thing is ONE FREAKING PAGE!

Eileen Gonzalez: This is extremely impressive. And yet it doesn't feel cluttered or rushed--it's wonderful to look at.

Brian Cronin: He's just THAT damned good. It's crazy, these panels have been used and homaged so many times that it is so weird looking at them in the context of just a normal story. The panel of him lying down that you mentioned, the scene of them on the motorcycle riding to the bomb. They're so iconic that it's strange to look at them as part of an actual story.

Eileen Gonzalez: It's especially jarring for me just knowing that Bucky is back now. It kind of affects how I read all the dialogue insisting that yes, Bucky is totally dead and there's no bringing him back, ever

Brian Cronin: It makes that future story all the more jarring, right? The Roy Thomas one where they travel back in time?

Eileen Gonzalez: YES, that one made me laugh out loud. Poor Cap's on the floor like "yes, I have gone back in time and confirmed with my own two eyes that Bucky is dead."

Brian Cronin: At the same time, this is notable for being one of Marvel's first major retcons, as Cap not only had a comic in the 1950s, but he also had, like, 35 issues of his ongoing series in the late 1940s that were set after World War II. And this is essentially saying, "Uh, no he didn't."

Eileen Gonzalez: Hm, yeah, I hadn't thought of it like that. And now we get the classic story about the plane and Cap being stuck in an ice block for (an ever increasing number of) decades. And the '50s Cap is just an impostor.

Brian Cronin: And then they later decide they needed to explain the Cap who was around post-World War II, as well. The non-anti-Commie asshole.

Eileen Gonzalez: That's comics for you--leave no plot thread dangling.

Brian Cronin: That's a sort of underrated aspect of Steve Englehart's career. For a guy who could be quite edgy and daring with his work (the dude pretty much invented the concept of suicide bombers in his Avengers run), he was also obsessed with weird continuity bits like that.

Eileen Gonzalez: It kind of feels like a precursor to more modern creators who do the same thing--go back and poke around at canon until they find some underused bit to update and expand on.

Brian Cronin: It really is.

Page 3: [valnet-url-page page=3 paginated=0 text='Who is this broccoli alien?']

Brian Cronin: Okay, so they go back home and then the issue....well...it goes in a....different direction.

Eileen Gonzalez: A direction in which everyone is extremely gullible, including Cap, but at least he has the excuse of having been frozen for two decades.

Brian Cronin: Ha! Yeah, well, remember, the Marvel populace believe that everything is an advertising stunt. So it should not be surprising that they think that this is a stunt, too.Everything is some sort of stunt!

Eileen Gonzalez: They're so cynical.

Brian Cronin: They really are. And yet, when Cap walks around town, we see some of the more pointed romanticism that you'll ever see in a Marvel comic of the era, with everyone reacting to Cap's return. Some of the dialogue there was bizarre ("He resembles a figure" - Have you heard a person talk?), but it was so heartfelt that it really carried.

The bit with the cop, in particular, was awesome.

Eileen Gonzalez: It's kinda crazy that everyone would remember Captain America so long after his supposed death. But that just goes to show what a symbol he is in the Marvel universe--even young people who were barely alive at the time know his name and face! And yeah, that cop is just so overwhelmed by it all. I don't blame him.

Brian Cronin: I'll probably end up doing an article about how they basically retconned all of this with their future continuity insert stories, as Cap really DIDN'T have a big gap of disappearance with all of those other heroes filling in for him!

Eileen Gonzalez: Sliding timescale strikes again.

Eileen Gonzalez: It must be so much rougher for "current" Cap. In this original version of the story, it's "only" been 20 years, so a lot of his friends from the war are still alive. In the updated versions, an entire lifetime has gone by, and the world is even more unfamiliar than it is to Cap here.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, definitely. Mark Waid did a great updated version of this story in a miniseries called Captain America: Man Out of Time.

Eileen Gonzalez: I've heard of that, but I haven't gotten around to reading it yet.

Brian Cronin: He really takes his time with it. That's one of the things that modern writers can do that obviously Jack and Stan didn't have the option of back then.

Eileen Gonzalez: True. These comics are certainly entertaining, but they had to be done quick--not much time for mulling things over and making substantial edits.

Brian Cronin: The brutal thing, honestly, is when Lee DID make edits. As Kirby would just have to redo the page and not get paid for the first version!

Eileen Gonzalez: Not a great system, that! Luckily Kirby could draw fast, but still.

Brian Cronin: No, but at least it worked out pretty well for the Kirby Estate later on, as it is hard to say that he is doing work for hire when you are only buying the pages that you use. So that was a big factor in the Kirby Estate getting their huge settlement from Disney in their lawsuit.

Eileen Gonzalez: It's nice to hear the family got something out of it, even if it did come so late.

Brian Cronin: Kirby and Lee then pull out a classic Silver Age trope when we learn that Rick Jones shockingly looks just like Bucky Barnes!

Eileen Gonzalez: Has anyone done an update where it turns out they're secretly related? I feel like that's the kind of thing that would crop up once and then immediately be forgotten forever.

Brian Cronin: Sadly, we never got a Captain America: Chapter One.

Eileen Gonzalez: Sad face. Side note: Rick is really racking up the frequent flyer miles with all his traveling back and forth between New York and the southwest in these first few issues.

Brian Cronin: Totally! It's also fascinating how, once again, the Avengers rely so much on Rick and the Teen Brigade to solve their problems. I like that Rick is super sketched out by Cap but then Cap's voice changes and Rick is all, "Okay, this dude is legit."

Eileen Gonzalez: The Avengers' dependence on the Teen Brigade is especially amusing because the Teen Brigade is basically useless this issue. We get a few panels of them stalking every dark-haired white man in New York... and yet it's Cap who finds the suspect. The Teen Brigade's efforts are for naught.

Brian Cronin: Even Wasp could have done that much!

Eileen Gonzalez: Except for Rick, who made a great errand boy by fetching the photos Cap asked for and helping him develop them in mere "minutes," according to that narration box.

Brian Cronin: Transistors were probably involved in developing the photo so quickly. Once they find the alien, it's fascinating how Kirby and Lee decide to have him be on Earth for centuries and even the real origin of the Medusa myth! That sure didn't go anywhere.

And then Namor just FINDS him? Dude's been on Earth for centuries and Namor just finds him right away?

Eileen Gonzalez: The Earth is really tiny in this issue, apparently. The Avengers JUST HAPPENED upon Cap floating around in the ocean, Namor JUST HAPPENED to find both this alien dude and his lost Atlantean army...

Brian Cronin: That's also a great page. Namor is all, "I am devoted to destroying the Avengers by myself...hey, is that my army? Oh sweet!"

Eileen Gonzalez: He's just so glad to have friends again!

Brian Cronin: Of course, the first thing he does when he reunites with his lost people is to...attack the Avengers!

Page 4: [valnet-url-page page=4 paginated=0 text='A battle royale!']

Brian Cronin: I love Thor's snarky response to Iron Man being impressed that he rescued the ship.

They're all so catty with each other early on.

Eileen Gonzalez: Iron Man was trying to pay you a compliment, Thor! I guess Asgardians are above our puny mortal compliments. But hey, Wasp actually sort of does something in this fight scene!

Brian Cronin: That's true. How crazy compressed is this issue? SO MUCH HAPPENS in this one issue! Speaking of catty, Cap gets blasted into the sea, and the other Avengers are like, "Did he run off on us?"

Meanwhile, Cap actually IS taking a break just to watch them in battle!

Eileen Gonzalez: They need to do some trust exercises after this. No one trusts anybody. Also, you'd think they'd want to focus more on Cap's return, but no, we get this plot about a celery-looking alien man who is also Medusa.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, that's always been the downside of this issue for me. The return of Cap is SO big that it feels like a bit of a disservice to then throw in the broccoli-haired alien plot and THEN a Namor and his army battle. Note that Lee also seems to have decided to retcon out Captain America's past relationship with Namor. It wouldn't be until later on that Marvel decided how to handle the interactions of their past characters (it took a while for them to confirm even that there was a Human Torch before Johnny Storm).

Eileen Gonzalez: It is especially a disappointment in how little time they spend on Cap because they build it up so much in the splash page.

Brian Cronin: Exactly. It's the tale of two stories, really. One iconic and one....less iconic.

Eileen Gonzalez: What, you mean you weren't TOTALLY INVESTED in seeing Medusa get home?

Brian Cronin: It's actually pretty funny how the alien guy takes off in the middle of the battle.

And since it causes what looks to be an earthquake, it's a pretty jerk move

Eileen Gonzalez: He doesn't even stop to say goodbye or thank the Avengers for their help. He's just "screw you stupid earthlings! I'm out!"

Brian Cronin: Speaking of jerk moves, right before they ask him to join their team, Iron Man is giving Cap grief about only springing into battle when it looked like Rick was in danger!

Brian Cronin: Why would Cap join these dudes? I mean, I guess he has nothing else going on (did we ever learn how he got a hotel room?), but still...

Eileen Gonzalez: Why would the Avengers even want him? He may be a legendary hero but he still abandoned them on that pier when they were turned into statues.

Brian Cronin: He did sort of take them all on at once. So they need a competent hero to join them.

Eileen Gonzalez: I guess after working with the Hulk, anyone would seem like a good replacement.

Brian Cronin: True. And Thor likes his outfit, which is a plus! Poor Rick, ending the issue being sad about moving on from the Hulk

Eileen Gonzalez:It's like the start of the worst love triangle ever.

Feel free to write in if you have stuff you'd like to see us discuss in future Avengers issues (or questions about the stories)! You send your questions, requests and/or comments to me at brianc@cbr.com!