This is "From a Different Point of View," a feature where I discuss a comic book series with another writer. In this case, it is CBR's own Eileen Gonzalez: who will be going over the history of the Avengers with me, story by story!

We continue with Avengers #17, "Four Against the Minotaur," by Stan Lee, Don Heck and Dick Ayers.

Brian Cronin: I am going to take a leap of faith here and think that Lee probably had more to do with the plotting of this issue than normal, since it carries over from the previous issue.

Brian Cronin: Which Heck did not work on.

Eileen Gonzalez: That would make sense.

Eileen Gonzalez: Whose idea do you think it was to put the Hulk on the cover with the Avengers like he's fighting with them, even though that doesn't happen?

Brian Cronin: Well, they DO search for him, right?

Brian Cronin: I think they toed the line pretty well there, by having the Hulk be sort of ghostly.

Brian Cronin: And the Hulk IS in the issue, so I think they played fair ball.

Brian Cronin: By the way, it just occurred to me that Lee's "heavier than normal plot input" might have seriously been as little as "They look for the Hulk."

Eileen Gonzalez: Ha, possibly!

Eileen Gonzalez: Also, I do think it was a good move to have this new team's first adventure be all about proving they can function without "the raw power" of their more famous predecessors.

Brian Cronin: Totally agreed. It instantly set the readers up for what to expect from this run.

Brian Cronin: Cool splash page by Heck!

Eileen Gonzalez: I'm distracted by Wanda's outfit, but otherwise, yes, that is a neat splash page!

Brian Cronin: It does seem rather..disjointed, as an outfit, right?

Eileen Gonzalez: The bikini thing she has on seems pointless. And her gloves are so pointy at the top!

Brian Cronin: It also seems to be oddly loose, no?

Brian Cronin: The top, that is.

Brian Cronin: It just sort of hangs there.

Eileen Gonzalez: It looks like she didn't put it on quite right.

Brian Cronin: How weird is their handling of Rick Jones?

Brian Cronin: What IS the deal there?

Brian Cronin: Sometimes he's an official member, sometimes he's not. Why is he here, just chilling in his sweater?

Eileen Gonzalez: That's probably why he's so annoyed--the Avengers keep jerking him around regarding whether he's actually a member or not.

Eileen Gonzalez: I'm guessing "not," since he disappears after the first page.

Eileen Gonzalez: Maybe they just keep him around because he's good at making coffee.

Brian Cronin: He also hypes Cap up at the start!

Brian Cronin: Scarlet Witch is getting some of that good early 1960s Marvel female hero characterization!

Brian Cronin: Just mooning over Cap.

Brian Cronin: I'm actually shocked that Heck hasn't really over-sexualized the Scarlet Witch yet. Her costume can be drawn in a fairly racy way if you wanted to go that route.

Eileen Gonzalez: I guess they had to have someone to balance out all that testosterone from Quicksilver and Hawkeye. Why did Hawkeye even want to join the team, if he doesn't want to work with others?

Brian Cronin: Yeah, some of the bickering is a bit over the top.

Brian Cronin: "Please let us join the Avengers!"

Brian Cronin: "Man, you all suck. Why am I here?"

Eileen Gonzalez: And Cap's reaction is hilarious. He goes right in with the insults. This team is off to a great start.

Brian Cronin: But also because Cap is now suddenly doubting himself out of nowhere. This doesn't seem to be the same guy who woke up out of suspended animation and basically told a group of heroes to come at him.

Brian Cronin: All calmly.

Brian Cronin: Now it's, "Oh man, I hope Hawkeye likes me!"

Eileen Gonzalez: I guess I can see where Cap would want to appear tough so that his team would respect him, especially since they need to trust each other if they don't want to die. Maybe he's feeling insecure because all of his friends up and left him without warning.

Brian Cronin: Thor STILL doesn't know that he's no longer an Avenger.

Brian Cronin: I love the naturalistic dialogue that Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch have about Tony Stark.

Brian Cronin: It's like he paid them to compliment him.

Brian Cronin: Hmmm....he IS rich...

Eileen Gonzalez: Gotta love that irony. Yeah, too bad Tony doesn't have superpowers and can't join the team, like that guy who is closely tied to him, Iron Man! Sure is a shame!

Brian Cronin: "Tony Stark is genius."

Brian Cronin: "Oh yeah, but maybe Iron Man is the power BEHIND his genius!"

Brian Cronin: "Huh? Tony Stark built the armor, how could Iron Man be the power behind the guy who powers Iron Man's armor?"

Brian Cronin: "....Our terrorist father likes me best."

Eileen Gonzalez: Looks like Scarlet Witch is Hawkeye's favorite. In the worst way possible.

Brian Cronin: And it only gets worse from here.

Brian Cronin: Mole Man's plan is just so freaking weird.

Brian Cronin: He sends a robot to give them a message...as it tries to kill them?!

Brian Cronin: What the what?

Eileen Gonzalez: And it's the vaguest message ever! "You'll find Hulk in desert." Even if they do make a good guess as to which desert it is, I think that desert is a little bigger than a city block. You couldn't have had the robot spit out a map at them or something?

Eileen Gonzalez: I do kinda like that panel of the robot falling apart, though.

Brian Cronin: We finally get to see Scarlet Witch use her powers!

Brian Cronin: I seriously think that Don Heck and Stan Lee are unsure what Scarlet Witch's powers are, exactly.

Brian Cronin: The use of a solid color in the panel where the robot explodes was used really well.

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, it's both a shame and a blessing about how underused the Scarlet Witch is, I think. A shame because her powers have the potentially to be really cool, and a blessing because if she used them to her full potential she wouldn't need anyone else and could solve every problem in about a page.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, that's always been the challenge with her.

Brian Cronin: it's good to know that the new Avengers are just slow on the uptake as the old Avengers when it comes to reacting while falling.

Brian Cronin: "Hawkeye, use your arrow that will keep you from falling!"

Brian Cronin: "Great idea! I was planning on just dying with my grappling hook in my quiver."

Eileen Gonzalez: I'm more amazed that, out of that entire desert, they JUST HAPPENED to pick the ONE SPOT where the Mole Man put his trap door. Truly spectacular. Good job, fellas.

Brian Cronin: I'm impressed by how deftly Lee is mixing the story in with the Hulk story that was coming out at the same time.

Brian Cronin: That takes some real skill.

Brian Cronin: This is now the second time the Avengers have met a being who inspired a piece of mythology, after the alien from Avengers #4 being the inspiration for Medusa!

Brian Cronin: Hawkeye's blast arrow seemed to be awfully close to the Avengers, right?

Brian Cronin: "Don't worry, I'll just use my dynamite arrow a couple feet from us!"

Eileen Gonzalez: Well, the Avengers assume that's the case, anyway. I'd like to see some scientific papers tracing the origins of these myths in-universe.

Eileen Gonzalez: Well, Hawkeye doesn't exactly have the gift of foresight, as we can see in the panel where he's bragging to Wanda as the Minotaur's hand creeps up behind him.

Eileen Gonzalez: That's a pretty funny panel, actually.

Eileen Gonzalez: Nice to see Hawkeye get what's coming to him. More time fighting crime and less time creeping on your teammates, please!

Brian Cronin: That really is a hilarious panel.

Brian Cronin: The sight of him smiling with the big claw over his face.

Brian Cronin: Great work by Heck.

Eileen Gonzalez: Meanwhile, Quicksilver has gotten himself into a spot of trouble. Were the Moloids always able to talk or is this a new development? I don't think they talked in the Mole Man's last appearance...

Brian Cronin: Yeah, I think that's just a mistake by Lee, honestly. I think Moloids were still supposed to be mute at this point in time.

Eileen Gonzalez: Ah, continuity errors, you're so much fun to nitpick!

Brian Cronin: It's nice how studious Quicksilver is.

Brian Cronin: Unlike Hawkeye, whose approach seems to be, "Why should I care? I shoot arrows! They couldn't live without me?"

Brian Cronin: Also, how does Quicksilver JUST NOW realize that the Moleman was the one who tricked/lured them?

Brian Cronin: Like as soon as the Mole Man brought him in, that should have been obvious, right? If it wasn't then, then why at THAT point?

Eileen Gonzalez: Good question! I hadn't even thought of that. I was mostly wondering why Mole Man seems so eager to get Quicksilver's speed. Gaining new powers was never really a thing for him before, was it?

Brian Cronin: No.

Brian Cronin: However, another thing that was never a thing for Mole Man.

Brian Cronin: Is consistency.

Eileen Gonzalez: In that case, it's right on brand for him.

Brian Cronin: How is Hawkeye SO dumb?

Brian Cronin: "We're falling, Hawkeye, use your rope arrow!"

Brian Cronin: And then "Hawkeye has an arrow that would work here." "I do?"

Brian Cronin: How does Cap know more about your darn arrows than you do, Hawkeye?

Eileen Gonzalez: It's almost like they shouldn't have admitted the guy who thought it was a good idea to try out for your team by tying up the butler.

Brian Cronin: And who doesn't even know what his own weapons do.

Eileen Gonzalez: And then they all condemn the Minotaur to a slow death. I mean, it did attack them first, but surely Wanda's hex power could have given it a more merciful end than that?

Brian Cronin: Why will he die if he loses his horns?

Brian Cronin: I didn't get that part.

Brian Cronin: Is that a thing? That animals die if they lose their horns?

Brian Cronin: I mean, I know animals that lose their talons or whatever can be screwed.

Brian Cronin: But that's typically when you're lower on the food chain than a giant minotuar, right?

Brian Cronin: Or are his horns, like, a key part of his anatomy that he would die without?

Eileen Gonzalez: I have no idea. I assumed he'd either bleed out or be unable to hunt, but none of those make sense. Then again, the Minotaur's whole existence doesn't make sense either, so eh.

Brian Cronin: This is true.

Eileen Gonzalez: And how do they know so much about Minotaur anatomy anyway?

Brian Cronin: I love Stan's use of Scarlet Witch's powers. "You'll remove these rocks, because, you know, bad luck and whatever."

Eileen Gonzalez: "Oh what bad luck, these rocks seems to have mysteriously disappeared."

Brian Cronin: Maybe rocks falling down is, like, bad luck for rocks?

Brian Cronin: The main point, of course, is that neither Stan nor Heck clearly know what Scarlet Witch's powers actually are.

Eileen Gonzalez: Her power is being able to balance on her one foot like that.

Eileen Gonzalez: On her tiptoe, no less.

Brian Cronin: Hey, I'm just impressed that her arms are covering her breasts!

Brian Cronin: I expected Heck to pull off one of those "Somehow standing so that breasts and ass both face toward the viewer" panels!

Brian Cronin: It's fascinating hearing Quicksilver talk about the Avengers as if they were some storied organization.

Brian Cronin: Maybe they did a lot of stuff off panel?

Brian Cronin: On panel, they tended to futz around a lot.

Brian Cronin: I mean, I guess they did repel that invasion by Kang.

Brian Cronin: Otherwise, why are the Avengers even all that popular? "Remember when they teamed up with the Fantastic Four to almost beat the Hulk but failed? Those guys were rad!"

Brian Cronin: You know who should be stars in the Marvel Universe? The Teen Brigade!

Brian Cronin: And yet instead, we don't even know their names!

Eileen Gonzalez: I guess they're going off of star power at this point? Like, hey, Iron Man and Thor are famous, so clearly their team is too.

Brian Cronin: Good point.

Eileen Gonzalez: Like when people add big-name stars to a movie or a music video or something. Well, clearly, this famous person is involved, so everything they touch becomes famous!

Brian Cronin: In an early Ant-Man story in Tales of Astonish, there was mention of an Ant-Man fan club.

Brian Cronin: He must have done a lot of cool stuff off-panel.

Brian Cronin: Quicksilver, by the way, is a total badass in the face of some nasty torture.

Eileen Gonzalez: I mean. If Jimmy Olsen can have a fan club, anyone can.

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, Quicksilver is really proving himself here after his earlier snobbery.

Brian Cronin: I love when the Avengers break in to save Quicksilver and Hawkeye is all shocked that Quicksilver is still alive.

Brian Cronin: "Oh, did I say that out loud? I meant, OF COURSE you're alive!"

Eileen Gonzalez: Hawkeye has a hilariously low level of faith in this entire team.

Eileen Gonzalez: I think he only likes Scarlet Witch because she's hot.

Eileen Gonzalez: The others? Clearly losers.

Brian Cronin: Maybe it's like the old Groucho Marx bit?

Brian Cronin: "Anyone who would have me as a member must be a bunch of losers."

Eileen Gonzalez: Ha! That checks out.

Brian Cronin: "Bam! I blew that robot up with bad luck!"

Brian Cronin: "No one knows how my powers work, do they?"

Brian Cronin: "Not even me, really."

Brian Cronin: I like the bit where Scarlet Witch manages to work "under the leadership of Captain America" into a sentence in a completely unnatural-sounding way.

Brian Cronin: Try saying that sentence out loud. It sounds ridiculous.

Eileen Gonzalez: A lot of this dialogue sounds ridiculous. Quicksilver even called out Mole Man for sounding like an old movie villain.

Eileen Gonzalez: Bit hypocritical of him, really.

Brian Cronin: I like the way he got in a dig at Magneto there, too.

Eileen Gonzalez: Insulting two villains with one burn.

Brian Cronin: Stan again cleverly tying in the bigger Marvel Universe picture.

Eileen Gonzalez: This whole issue is kind of a nod to the bigger Marvel Universe--we get the Magneto mention, and then the interludes with the Hulk fighting the Leader.

Brian Cronin: Yeah. I think I'll do an Our Lives Together on this one in the future. It's a very clever early use of shared continuity.

Brian Cronin: Scarlet Witch totally looks like she's about to kiss Quicksilver on the lips in that panel where they free him, right?

Brian Cronin: I'm sure Heck didn't mean anything with it

Brian Cronin: But it's still there.

Brian Cronin: Mole Man then lets them escape rather than continue the fight.

Brian Cronin: And Cap has another one of those ridiculous speeches he always used to give Rick.

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, this ending is... something. They kept going on and on about how the Avengers never lose, but it doesn't feel like they really won here either.

Brian Cronin: "We DID find the Hulk! The true Hulk was our friendship the whole time!"

Brian Cronin: Yeah, they didn't find the Hulk and they at BEST fought Mole Man to a tie.

Brian Cronin: I guess they did beat the Minotaur?

Brian Cronin: That's something.

Eileen Gonzalez: And the last panel where they're all staring at Cap in judgement. More trouble between them is in the offing!

Brian Cronin: Oh, and they beat that trick robot.

Brian Cronin: I enjoy the strife, but yeah, boy, Cap has some issues.

Brian Cronin: "Look at them...staring at me! Oh how they must hate me!"

Brian Cronin: The others "Why is Cap just standing there staring at us saying nothing?"

Eileen Gonzalez: Hawkeye is probably thinking about how much better things would be if he was the one standing there staring down the rest of the team.

Eileen Gonzalez: Because he is obviously leader material.

Brian Cronin: "If I was in charge we....would have all died on that fall. Crap, I got to get better at this."

Brian Cronin: Well, now that we have had a "foretaste" of what is to come, what did you think of said foretaste?

Brian Cronin: Did you enjoy the first adventures of Cap's Kooky Quartet?

Eileen Gonzalez: I did! It was silly, and I kind of miss the original line-up, but knowing they'll be back eventually makes it easier for me to sit back and enjoy the ride. I like the way they managed to band together, despite the lack of Hulk.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, I think Lee came up with a clever setup here of changing the book dramatically and building a whole new dynamic.

Brian Cronin: And now, when the others return, these new members will have been built up as personalities.

Brian Cronin: Well...Hawkeye and Scarlet Witch will be built up as personalities, at least.

Brian Cronin: People tend to default to the "original lineup" so often and yet the Avengers are one of the few examples where people really have the most nostalgia for the LATER members, like Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch and VIsion.

Brian Cronin: It's a testament to the success of Lee and Kirby's shakeup last issue.

Eileen Gonzalez: A lot of people forget Captain America wasn't in the original lineup either.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, exactly.

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, a lot of the later characters are just as closely associated with the team, if not more so, than the originals. That's quite an achievement.

Brian Cronin: Okay, next time, we somehow JUST NOW get our first evil commie villain!

Eileen Gonzalez: Seventeen whole issues without one! That's got to be a record of some kind.

Brian Cronin: People must have been writing letters, "What kind of red-lovin' magazine IS this?"

Brian Cronin: Probably the same ones who kept writing in to say, "PLEASE HAVE THE AVENGERS KILL SOMEONE! PLEASE!"

Feel free to write in if you have stuff you'd like to see us discuss in future Avengers issues (or questions about the stories)! You send your questions, requests and/or comments to me at brianc@cbr.com!