This is "From a Different Point of View," a feature where I discuss a comic book series with another writer. In this case, it is CBR's own Eileen Gonzalez who will be going over the history of the Avengers with me, story by story!

We continue with Avengers #6, "Masters Of Evil!" by Jack Kirby, Stan Lee and Chic Stone

Brian Cronin: I wonder who the bad guys will be in this one?

Yet another different inker for Kirby!

Eileen Gonzalez:

They're letting all the inkers in the bullpen in on this series! Interesting that the Hulk is still on the cover after everything. I mean, up in the corner there

Brian Cronin: They can't quit him! Just like we said in our last installment!

Eileen Gonzalez: I don't think he's even really been a member since issue two, when he quit, but there he is.

Brian Cronin: As we noted at the end of last issue, there was no way that Kirby intended for the Teen Brigade's message at the end of #5 to actually be an "emergency," as this next issue opens with the Avengers just hanging out. But with Lee then throwing in an over-the-top explanation for why they're not reacting to the "emergency" message of the previous issue.

It's really fun seeing the downsides of the Marvel Method in sort of real time.

Eileen Gonzalez: Ha, yeah. To be fair, probably a lot of readers didn't notice so much, since they were reading them spaced out as opposed to one after the other like we're doing. But still, a little pre-planning would not have gone amiss

Brian Cronin: It's just so funny seeing Lee get boxed in by his own, almost capricious at times, dialogue.

Eileen Gonzalez: I guess that's a creativity all its own--writing your way out of corners

Brian Cronin: Two issues after correctly noting that the addition of Cap to the Avengers was a collectors item, Lee keeps on pushing the needle by trying to claim that this is a collectors item, too. I mean, I guess it technically is, but you know what I mean, Law of diminishing returns, Stan!

Eileen Gonzalez: Everything is a classic now! (and like you said, yeah, it is, but at the time they didn't know that)

Brian Cronin: It's fascinating to see how worried they were at the time that Cap wasn't "powerful" enough. In the letter column of the previous issue, they noted to look out for this issue, to see Cap's "new powers." Which, of course, is his now-magnetically controlled shield. That has a radio in it.

For...reasons.

Eileen Gonzalez: Coolness reasons! And yet all Cap can think about is Bucky

Brian Cronin: We are clearly used to them just pulling stuff out of nowhere, but wow, this is such an obvious misstep. It's also fascinating to note that Kirby clearly did not think of Cap's shield as this sacred cow. He was the dude who first drew the thing way back when and yet he was willing to just tear it open and pop radio stuff inside of it.

Eileen Gonzalez: I seem to recall a later issue saying that the serum didn't give Cap "superpowers" per se, it just turned him into the equivalent of a really great athlete. So I guess next to a Norse god, a dude in flying armor, and two people who could change their sizes at will (not to mention the enormous green rage monster), "is good at sports" didn't seem quite so impressive. And the team is always talking about what a great strategist Cap is, like they're trying to remind us of all his other talents

Brian Cronin: Yeah, which is interesting in and of itself, though, right? They have RICK JONES on the team And yet they're worried about Captain freakin' America cutting it!

Eileen Gonzalez:

Ha! Yeah, Rick is so out of place here

Brian Cronin: Actually, that might explain the radio in the shield. "Rick has that awesome radio that solves all of our issues every other issue....quick, give Cap a radio, too!" "Radios for everyone!"

Eileen Gonzalez: At least Rick has the excuse of being a trainee. Meanwhile Cap is a literal living legend

Brian Cronin: "What's that, Odin?" "It's my new ham radio. Asgard has got to keep up with the times!"

Eileen Gonzalez: Who needs ravens to communicate when you have the modern marvel that is HAM RADIO?

Page 2: [valnet-url-page page=2 paginated=0 text='Baron Zemo makes a retconny, super racist introduction!']

Brian Cronin: We then get the villainous introduction of Baron Zemo. Kirby does not eff around here. Dude is introduced WALKING ON SOUTH AMERICAN DUDES' BACKS!

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, they waste zero time in showing us how awful Zemo is. Though I have to admit, I giggled at him throwing a tantrum like a little kid when he learns Captain America is alive

Brian Cronin: It's interesting that this is one of the first villains from Marvel where his racism is inherently intertwined with his villainy. And yeah, his reaction is awesome. And I love how Lee plays with the expected exposition tropes. Very clever stuff. "Do you want to tell me how you got that mask stuck on your head?" "Not really." pause "Okay, I guess I will tell you!"

Eileen Gonzalez: Every villain's weakness: the need to monologue. I'm just wondering how Zemo is still alive if he's had that bag on his head for 20 years. How does he eat? Breathe? Comb his hair???

Brian Cronin: Great question. I don't know if they ever actually answer it. I assume Mark Gruenwald must have at some point. Nutrient enemas, I assume.

Eileen Gonzalez:

Ha!

Eileen Gonzalez: Another question: has Zemo's time in South America ever been expanded on? I feel like there's a lot to unpack here. Who is this bald guy who follows all his orders? And how did he conquer this area of South America? These old comics pack in so many details but then don't really do anything with them.

Brian Cronin: I think Kurt Busiek later did spend some time on Zemo's South American years in a Thunderbolts issue. Power Man/Goliath was one of the guys who worked for Zemo down there as a mercenary.

Eileen Gonzalez: Oh cool. I do remember about Power Man, now that you mention him

Brian Cronin: It's amazing how good Kirby and Lee were at retcons. It really feels like Baron Zemo is some classic villain, even from this first appearance.

Eileen Gonzalez: It really does! I actually looked up Baron Zemo before this chat because I assumed he was an old villain who first appeared in the '40s. Nope! Debuted 1964. I was shocked.

Brian Cronin: They're so damn smooth. It even makes it feel like he appeared in #4, as well, right? When he references seemingly killing Cap and Bucky in #4. You're like, "Oh, yeah, I guess he was in that issue." When, of course, he wasn't.

Eileen Gonzalez: Very dishonest footnote there

Brian Cronin: Stan was gaslighting us!

Eileen Gonzalez: Which I guess goes back to how readers back then only got one issue a month, or every two months. And I think kids tended to trade comics around back then? Making it even less likely someone would remember well enough to go "hey wait a minute" and go check

Brian Cronin: Oh true, but we're re-reading it as we go and it actually works that way for US, which is so impressive.

Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah. I mean, we know they were fudging Zemo's appearance in Avengers #4, but it did 100% fool me into thinking this was not his first appearance

Brian Cronin: Speaking of fudging. We see the Teen Brigade alert the Avengers. Five pages into the issue! When the Avengers are ostensibly flying back to New York....because of a Teen Brigade alert.Black Knight specifically notes he's only been spraying the adhesive for a few minutes. So obviously he couldn't have been the threat from the end of #5.

Eileen Gonzalez: There is so much weird stuff going on in this issue, time wise. That's one thing Lee and Kirby couldn't fix for all their talents. Or maybe there's a lost story there about what the first alert was about.

Page 3: [valnet-url-page page=3 paginated=0 text='If these are the MASTERS of Evil, I would hate to see their rejected members...']

Brian Cronin: The Masters of Evil...wow, that's a half-assed team, huh? To start, at least. I guess they just hadn't been around long enough to collect enough memorable solo villains that could be put together on to a team.

Eileen Gonzalez: Good point. Hm, what good villains were around in 1964?

Brian Cronin: The FF and Spider-Man had all the good villains

Eileen Gonzalez: And they wouldn't share? How rude

Brian Cronin: Well, I guess it made more sense to use Avengers villains for an anti-Avengers villains team. But yeah, slim pickings.

Eileen Gonzalez: The fact that the adhesive is bright pink doesn't help sell them as serious and imposing villains either. I guess it shows up better than white, but still

Brian Cronin: I like the Wasp/Melter fight. "What manner of creature are you?"

Really, WASP's the breaking point for you, Melter? "All of this was very normal, but then a tiny woman showed up and I was like, 'This is TOO MUCH'!" "What kind of advertising stunt is this?"

Eileen Gonzalez: My favorite part is Iron Man driving a pick-up while Iron Man and Giant-Man water ski behind it. This whole fight is just so ridiculous!

Brian Cronin: It really is. Honestly, so far, most of the Avengers' fights have had this hilarious ramshackle effect to them, right? Like a sort of Keystone Cops effect.

Eileen Gonzalez: I'm definitely getting the impression they don't know what they're doing. Which is kind of wrong, considering they're all experienced crime fighters and presumably train together once in a while. Or else what are those team meetings for, playing card games??

Brian Cronin: "Watch out, Thor, I know you have a super-powerful cosmic weapon, but the Black Knight's lance shoots out bolas!"

Eileen Gonzalez: The sad part is that the bolas are the most impressive weapon he has. In his fight with Giant-Man in Tales to Astonish, Black Knight almost defeated him with an ITCH RAY.

Brian Cronin: I think last issue made it pretty clear that when they're not in meetings, they're not interacting or training at ALL. Except for Cap and Rick Jones. Maybe that's why Rick is a member. He's the only one getting any training!

Eileen Gonzalez: That's a scary thought: Rick Jones is the best trained Avenger. Yikes!

Brian Cronin: I adore Baron Zemo's arrival. When he notes, "Wait, a solution for Adhesive X? I never thought of that!"

Say whaaaaaaa?

Eileen Gonzalez: Honestly! What have you been doing the past twenty years? Brilliant Nazi scientist my foot

Brian Cronin: He literally debuted asking his servant if he had found a way to get Adhesive X off of his head! Earlier this very issue!

Eileen Gonzalez: That's just bad. This issue is a hilarious mess

Brian Cronin: Not only that, but it turns out that all he had to do, apparently, was consult with Paste Pot freakin' Pete!

Eileen Gonzalez: "Paste" is right in his name, even. How did this dude conquer South America?

Brian Cronin: I still can't get over how Kirby and Lee got away with naming a dude Paste Pot Pete. Like, why would that even be something you would think of? "You know that dirty limerick, 'Piss Pot Pete'? Let's reference that for some reason!"

Eileen Gonzalez:

I must admit I've never heard of that. Is that really where the name came from? That makes it so much worse

Brian Cronin: I featured it in an old Foggy Ruins of Time here. Luckily they dropped the name fairly early on, but...wow.

Eileen Gonzalez: Side note: that is a terrible costume. Everything about this character is terrible

Brian Cronin: You know it's bad when becoming "The Trapster" is a huge upgrade.

Eileen Gonzalez: The Super Hero Squad Show spent half an episode just making fun of Paste Pot Pete, and rightly so

Brian Cronin: It's awesome how the Avengers come up with the idea of trading off to fight the various members of the Masters of Evil. Because "Melter can melt Iron Man's armor, but that means the Wasp can safely fight him, right?"

A Melting Ray that only melts metal is insane.

Eileen Gonzalez: And yet it's an improvement--in his first appearance, it specifically only melted IRON. Which is lucky for him, since his first enemy was Iron Man. But yeah, the bit where they trade enemies is fun. Love Thor whirling his hammer to fend off Black Knight's attack

Brian Cronin: And, of course, when things REALLY need to get done, the Avengers turn to...the Teen Brigade. And they all applaud Cap for being so smart to come up with this plan.

"I know, I'll have the Teen Brigade switch out the glue with this dissolver fluid." "Great idea, Cap! You're so clever! Teenagers are always the best choice for a mission like that!" "One of them is even trained!" It's good that even during the mission, the other Teen Brigade members note how lucky Rick is to get training from Cap.

Maybe ALL of them should have some training before being sent on dangerous missions? Maybe?

Eileen Gonzalez: Maybe that's why Rick insists on hogging the spotlight there, saying he'll tackle baldy himself rather than letting Team Brigadier #3 do it because he knows he's the only one who has a chance of NOT getting killed. And wasn't Cap training all of them just last issue, telling them to eat good food and stuff? Did they all drop out except Rick?

Brian Cronin: Oh, good call! Well, the Teen Brigade, at one point, was like, dozens of dudes. So maybe that was just one group of members that got the Cap PSA.

Eileen Gonzalez: True! Maybe the others were busy on their ham radios that day

Brian Cronin: If they're not on the ham radios, the Avengers have no idea what is going on in the world. It's funny that the Avengers split up their enemies, but Iron Man still ends up fighting the Melter anyways.

Eileen Gonzalez: Their plan was only 66% successful in that regard. Thank goodness for the convenient fire hydrant! Meanwhile, Zemo couldn't get the bag off his head, but he sure did perfect hypnosis.

Brian Cronin: Example #4045 of "Powers plucked out of nowhere."

Page 4: [valnet-url-page page=4 paginated=0 text='Cap gives his first major speech!']

Brian Cronin: Then we get what I believe is the first epic Captain America speech of the modern age!

Eileen Gonzalez: That is a pretty great speech. And it's accompanied by an exciting Kirby-drawn smackdown!

Brian Cronin: It's shocking how powerful Kirby's pencils were. It's like lightning in a bottle.

Eileen Gonzalez: Seriously. Ever single panel is just so dynamic, it really pops out at you

Brian Cronin: Zemo's pilot is shockingly competent, right? He is eventually given a name. Wait for it....Franz Gruber. Seriously!

Eileen Gonzalez: Ha! I did not know that. That's fantastic. And yeah, I think he did more damage to Cap than Zemo did throughout their whole fight

Brian Cronin: Kirby and Lee later brought him back for an excellent Cap/Black Panther team-up story that ran at the end of Cap's run in Tales of Suspense (and ended in the first issue of Cap's solo series). He dies there, though, impersonating Baron Zemo.

Eileen Gonzalez: I know I've read that, then, but it's been years. I'll have to go back and refresh my memory, if only to laugh at his name

Brian Cronin: I feel sort of bad that they don't just give some of the dissolver to Zemo once he's in custody. I mean, dang, dudes

Eileen Gonzalez: It's probably self-preservation. How bad must he smell under there after twenty years with the same hood on? The stench would probably kill everyone in a mile radius

Brian Cronin: How cool is the bit at the end where Thor explains why he can't just take the Black Knight's flying horse?

Eileen Gonzalez: Ah, yes, the ever honorable Thor. I think he's the one who suggested they let Namor get away because he fought well? But he won't steal a horse either, not even from a crook. And not even when it's a super cool horse that the Black Knight performed horrible experiments on in order to give him wings. Wait, maybe that's not so honorable after all

Brian Cronin: You can tell that Lee was worried that fans would assume that Thor was keeping the horse after Kirby showed him on it. So he threw in that weird, super natural dialogue. It's interesting that the Wasp notes that the Avengers spend a lot of time talking about their fights after the fact. Sort of makes it worse that their strategy remains "Just all run at them and do whatever comes natural" every time, huh?

Eileen Gonzalez: Apparently "talking" in this case refers to "bragging" and not actually "let's review what we did right and wrong so we don't muck it up next time" Six issues in and they're still pretty disorganized. Fun to watch, but disorganized

Brian Cronin: It's all still a bit of a brilliant mess. But hey, with Jack Kirby and Stan Lee involved, it still works.

Eileen Gonzalez: Very much so! And I'm enjoying these new villains, as silly as they are. Aside from the Hulk, I think they're the recurring set of bad guys we've had--everyone else so far has been a one-off

Brian Cronin: I guess they sort of take the place of the Hulk, right? As the new recurring villain of the series. They're in #6-7 and then 9, 15-16

I guess that's not THAT frequent.

Eileen Gonzalez: Seems that way! And they are actual villain-villains. With the Hulk, it was always more of a misunderstanding

Or the Avengers being jerks

Brian Cronin: Or some sort of advertising stunt,

Eileen Gonzalez: Those gosh darn overzealous marketers!