Since the dawn of the New 52, two names have been synonymous with "Batman," both as the creators behind the series and in terms of redefining everything from his origin to his relationship to the Joker. At Comic-Con International in San Diego, writer Scott Snyder and artist Greg Capullo visited with CBR TV's Jonah Weiland for an in-depth discussion about their run on "Batman." They discuss the recently concluded "Endgame" storyline, what it's like to be telling new stories with Commissioner Gordon as the new Batman and how their collaboration has both evolved and remains essential to the work they're doing on the DC Comics title.
Snyder & Capullo Discuss Killer "Endgame" Finale in "Batman"
In the first part of the conversation, Snyder and Capullo talk about "Endgame," whether or not it was meant to be the end of their run, and how long each of them plans to stay on "Batman." They also talk about leaving darkness behind for a lighter tone with "Superheavy," the current arc that stars Jim Gordon in the title role. Snyder then explains how Capullo helps him with more than just drawing the book and discusses how they ultimately landed on the ending for "Endgame" together.
On why "Endgame" wasn't the end for either creator:
Scott Snyder: It was designed to be our last story but I thought it would be -- I knew his contract went through #50, so I was gonna place it so it ended closer to #50. What happened was, when you signed up and we knew you were gonna stay, I was like, "What if we move it up before the [DC Comics] move? I have an idea for this story that we could do afterward that's really wacky, but if people like 'Endgame' enough it'll give us a brand new lease on the book and start all of these kind of new threads about Commissioner Gordon and Bruce and Alfred and everybody -- Joker, all of it." So I told it to him, and he liked it, so I was like, "Let's do it."
For me it really is my relationship with him goes beyond "Batman." ... My feeling is kind of like, we've gotten to do so much on the book that I never expected to do -- the origin and Joker stories and all of this -- that I do feel like we've said more than I ever expected to say and at this point it's more icing upon icing upon icing and the only way to do it is to just try and honor the character by doing stuff that you feel is daring and as personal as you can make it. And the fans have just been so good to us. It's crazy how good they are.
Greg Capullo: I just saw a guy tweet, "It's awesome that Scott and Greg treat the book as if it's a creator-owned book." It speaks to what he just said. He's not trying to fit it into any expected patterns, it's just like what moves him. And it's funny because periodically he runs out of -- he thinks he's run out of ideas -- and he goes, "Greg, I just don't know. We might have to move along, I don't have any ideas." And then all the sudden we're walking along the boardwalk or something and he goes, "Hey! What do you think of this?" [Laughs] ... He's still got lots in the well left.
Snyder: We do. I mean I have stuff that would carry us for another few years, but I think part of it is just knowing when our welcome [runs out], I feel like, or when the fans really feel like they're ready for someone new on the book, too. We try and be very in tune to that.
Snyder, Capullo Talk New "Batman" Villains, Batmobile & Bruce Wayne
On the new direction for "Batman" with Commissioner Gordon in the title role and the lighter tone the book has taken on:
Snyder: We've always tried to zig zag. If "Court of Owls" was a detective story we wanted to do horror after and do "Death of the Family," and then from there go incredibly bright and colorful in "Zero Year" and then go dark. We've tried to do all sorts of different things. With this story what I would say is it's sort of Trojan horsed in where it is bright and it's funny and it's mean to be sort of a lighter hearted start, but the villain is very scary and what's it's about is very personal. I mean, for me, Commissioner Gordon is struggling to see whether Batman can be a symbol of all the things that people put in place to protect themselves in a city like Gotham -- you know, the police, local government, all of these things that they've lost faith in in Gotham at this moment because of what happened in "Endgame" and historically. He wants so badly to be this bridge between those things and the population. And the villain, Mr. Bloom, is sort of the thing that comes up out of the cracks when there are these giant chasms between communities, between classes, between authority and the population, all of that. And he exacerbates that and takes full advantage in a very horrific way.
So for me, it starts in this way that's very over the top and colorful and zany, but it's a deep story in that regard, too, that has to do with things that I think are resonant. And on top of that, one of things I'd say, because #42 came out on Wednesday, it's also a story that has a lot to do with Bruce's part in the mythology as well. It's a very deep Bruce Wayne story for me. It's one of the toughest Bruce Wayne stories that I've done, too.
The "Batman" creators continue their conversation with CBR TV by explaining how working with one another is the key to making these stories as great as they are, the alchemy of their collaboration, and the time Snyder accidentally e-mailed Capullo while complaining about him to someone else. Capullo and Snyder discuss driving each other nuts from time to time, how much they actually love each other, and why disagreements end up leading to telling the best stories they can together.
On whether Capullo would ever draw "Batman" without Snyder writing it:
Capullo: No. As a matter of fact, one of the things I said to DC, the stipulation for me to do what I'm doing is he's gotta be the guy writing the book.
Snyder: When he did that it really -- that meant so much to me.
Capullo: I think it's important too, because I'll tell you why. I used to play in bands, and you can have guys who are all the same technical proficiency and you just, you're making music together and it's technically sound, but there's something intangible that makes it not as good as it can be with a certain other group of guys. I think you could give me a writer who is on par with Scott and I could do the exact same thing I do for Scott and I don't think it would have the same kind of magic that somehow our relationship has. I don't know what it is that causes it, but I can see the reaction to what it is that we do by the fans. I don't think it would be comfortable [for me]. I think something would be lost if he got another artist to do "Batman" or I got another writer to do "Batman." It might be great and you go, "Great story, great art," or whatever, but I think whatever it is that has been magic with us would be lost.
On Snyder's biggest worry and how fighting makes the book better:
Snyder: What I was going to say about being friends is this: We have arguments. I'm sure there are times I've aggravated you to no end, I can only imagine what you've said to Jamie about me about whatever.
Capullo: Just that I would kill you some day. [Laughs
Snyder: I love this guy, like for real. Like family love this guy. And what I'd say is maybe part of the magic on the book is that my biggest -- he'll tell you -- my biggest worry on the book is that you're gonna be disappointed with something that I send to you. And I always say to him when I send the script, he'll vouch for this, "You sure you like it? You sure you like it? Anything?" Because we've become good friends in a way where I respect what you do so much, you've been such a mentor to me that when I send you a script, I will not send you a script until it's my absolute A-game. Like absolute, absolute the best I can do. Part of that comes out of that friendship or partnership.
Capullo: Plus, because we're friends, you can tolerate these little bits of friction. Those bits of friction, that helps the product. If you were both on the same page all the time -- that's like having a yes man at a company meeting, you know what I mean? ... You don't really accomplish nearly as much as if you go, "You know, I think that last idea sucks." It might not feel good to receive that, but if the outcome of that is better it's a win for us, and it's a win for the fans.
Wrapping up their conversation, Capullo and Snyder discuss coming up with the right look for Gordon as Batman, who brought what elements to the table and the valuable lesson Capullo learned early in his career about making each character feel unique despite all being drawn by the same hand.
INTERVIEW: "Batman's" Snyder & Capullo Bet Big On "Superheavy"
On designing Commissioner Gordon's Batman suit:
Capullo: Everything initially originates from Scott. Even with the Talons he like pointed to G.I. Joe's Snake Eyes and stuff like that. He always gives me a stepping off point. Sometimes I land closer to that spot and sometimes further from that spot. ... For this one, Robocop was one that got thrown my way, and he really wanted to have super tall ears, I mean super tall ears, man. He wanted them to be asymmetrical, which at the time I went, "I'm not sure if I'm digging one short, one long. But pretty much I think that was... did you give me anything else?
Snyder: "Appleseed," stuff like that.
Capullo: That was a jumping off point. I had a couple designs, and one of them I thought was really cool, too. The fact that Gordon is kind of like a lean character, I tried to emulate that with the armor. But he also was hoping for a tall armor, right?
Snyder: Yeah.
Capullo: So yeah, you just take those components, and then I added -- I put some striping to kind of mimic a cop car, just to relate to Gordon, you know what I mean? The thin and the thick white striping on him. And I also did that on the inside costume. When Scott told me he needed like an under armor for when he gets out of the exoskeleton, Scott was really -- he must have come into contact with something that appealed to him that was asymmetrical. He goes, "I love it, just on one shoulder, we add like some color or something." ... So again, I tried to pull that element from the outside armor, I have the same kind of striping with the thin and thick. It's just like in interior design. You try and drag colors, you try and drag textures. I did the same thing with the Bat thing. That was it. It was just trying to go, "What do I feel about Gordon?" How that would be to fit his physique, his personality or whatever, and then take a beating on the Bat-bunny ear thing that twitter had a ball with.
Snyder: The other thing, you're selling yourself short in a way. When I see Gordon Batman in the under armor suit, I know it's him [from] his body language. And when you see Gordon without his mustache, with the Marine cut, you know it's him. The way you're able to make him so himself as Batman to me is what sells an idea that's so crazy.